Paton S1

Paton S1,
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/30 ... ton-s1.jpg
The delectable Paton S1 Strada road bike will be making its UK debut at the Bikeshed event in London this weekend (May 24-25). The Milan built machines are powered by the 72bhp, 650cc Kawasaki Er-6 parallel twin motor and feature custom built lightweight tubular steel frames.

Four versions of the S1 will be on offer with prices ranging from £16,574 to £23,574 for the limited edition First Factory Signature model. All versions get Brembo four piston brakes, the higher spec models feature Ohlins suspension.

Paton are claiming a very respectable 158kg wet weight.
bit costly though

It stands to reason that there must still be people living on this planet who still know how to build a motorcycle. The bike looks like perfection. I don't often get a buzz from looking at a bike these days, however this one does it for me. Thanks for posting that.

Yep, it looks the business alright!
cheers
wakeup

Hmmm, there's that Kwaka DOHC 650 again.

The bike they come in new is not that incapable.
And has a warranty, out of the showroom...
For about $10k ??

Doesn't do it for me.
The racer does, it is exquisite.
This looks like a very poor look-alike job to me.

Fast Eddie said:

Doesn't do it for me.
The racer does, it is exquisite.
This looks like a very poor look-alike job to me.

Click to expand...

Which racer are you referring to, the original 500 cc Paton , or this Kawa engined road going version.

If you are referring to the picture in the web site that Madass140 posted, I'll agree with you, but they have a version that is intended for competition use that is something else. Olie Linsdell is riding one in the TT, but it will all depend on the crank still being in one piece after practice whether he actually gets to race it.

I seem to remember that in the write-up the Kawa motor turns out around 60 BHP. With a bike that light that amount of power is enough for the average rider to do themselves some mischief. It depends on what it must compete with. I'd love to ride it as long as it is fairly reliable. A good 650cc Triton would be hard pressed to beat that Paton, and the Triton is enough for anyone to have fun with.

Snotzo said:

Fast Eddie said:

Doesn't do it for me.
The racer does, it is exquisite.
This looks like a very poor look-alike job to me.

Click to expand...

Which racer are you referring to, the original 500 cc Paton , or this Kawa engined road going version.

If you are referring to the picture in the web site that Madass140 posted, I'll agree with you, but they have a version that is intended for competition use that is something else. Olie Linsdell is riding one in the TT, but it will all depend on the crank still being in one piece after practice whether he actually gets to race it.

Click to expand...

Allow me to clarify what I am reffering to:

The road bike in the picture posted by Madass (which is not a race bike, due largely to the fact that it is a road bike), is what I was reffering to as a 'very poor look-alike' of the racer.

The racer (which is not a road bike, due largely to the fact that it is a race bike), is what I reffered to as 'the racer' and is, to me at least, 'exquisite'.

Hope that clarifies.

Fast Eddie said:

Snotzo said:

Fast Eddie said:

Doesn't do it for me.
The racer does, it is exquisite.
This looks like a very poor look-alike job to me.

Click to expand...

Which racer are you referring to, the original 500 cc Paton , or this Kawa engined road going version.

If you are referring to the picture in the web site that Madass140 posted, I'll agree with you, but they have a version that is intended for competition use that is something else. Olie Linsdell is riding one in the TT, but it will all depend on the crank still being in one piece after practice whether he actually gets to race it.

Click to expand...

Allow me to clarify what I am reffering to:

The road bike in the picture posted by Madass (which is not a race bike, due largely to the fact that it is a road bike), is what I was reffering to as a 'very poor look-alike' of the racer.

The racer (which is not a road bike, due largely to the fact that it is a race bike), is what I reffered to as 'the racer' and is, to me at least, 'exquisite'.

Hope that clarifies.

Click to expand...

The version for competition I was referring to is an out and out racer for use in the Super Twins class and similar. It carries no road going equipment whatsoever. Therefore there are two Paton racers, hence my query - which one ? I was assuming you were aware of the Super Twins model, but appears you were not.

Hope that clarifies.

Snotzo said:

but it will all depend on the crank still being in one piece after practice whether he actually gets to race it.

Click to expand...

Why, is there some tendency for the crank to not survive ?

What sort of horsepowers can they get out of a race version ?
The Kwacka claims something like 72 BHP for the roadbike,
and it revs to near 11,000.

The version for competition I was referring to is an out and out racer for use in the Super Twins class and similar. It carries no road going equipment whatsoever. Therefore there are two Paton racers, hence my query - which one ? I was assuming you were aware of the Super Twins model, but appears you were not.

Hope that clarifies.[/quote]

Well at least we're now both clear!

I was referring only to the bike in the pic posted by madass, which is the road version. TBH I haven't seen any pics of the new race version yet, but my guess is that it will look a lot like the road bike.

To me though, the original Paton was a very nice thing to look at, so purely functional, so minimalist.

Although I like some retro bikes, i believe they are actually very difficult for firms to get 'right'. I also tend to think that an over reliance on retro-ness is a bit lazy of firms, to me it indicates a lack of original thinking, a lack of real design vision.

If Paton still have the kind of engineering and design ability in house that it took to build the original bike, I'd have liked to have seen them build a truly competing modern racer.

Like Ducati, they stick to their heritage of 90 degree v twins, but do so in an ultra modern way. Have you seen their latest ltd edition road bike... 200bhp and 150kg... Out of a v twin. That is impressive design and engineering ability!

A bit must depend on whether the Kawasaki motor forces the frame to be different from the Paton 500 racer. If the weight distribution is still OK, the bike should be good. I can't remember if the motor has six speeds attached to it. If it has, even in a a fairly mild state of tune, it should be a great ride. And I'm not talking about cruising on public roads. 70 BHP is enough in a bike like that, however it depends on what the intended use might be.

Rohan,the cranks break regularly when the engine is hotted up for racing use. Rev limiters are set at approx 10750, although some racers are known to have made changes to their ignition which enables them to run in excess of 11000 rpm. Many attempts have been made to overcome this problem, but short of a one off billet crank, there appears as yet to be no immediate solution. With the stock engine putting out a claimed 70+ rwhp, it is said to be an excellent street performer, but good Super Twin racers are making better than 90 rwhp.

Fast Eddie, I would post some photo's of the Super Twin Paton, but for the life of me cannot work out the Photobucket thing, the introductory post which would advise on how to do this does not seem to fit the Photobucket web site details. I spent nearly all morning trying to sort it out, and quite frankly at my age have much better things to do with my time. Sorry about that, but let's hope that the press release carries pictures of the Super Twin model.

Snotzo said:

Rohan,the cranks break regularly when the engine is hotted up for racing use. Rev limiters are set at approx 10750, although some racers are known to have made changes to their ignition which enables them to run in excess of 11000 rpm. Many attempts have been made to overcome this problem, but short of a one off billet crank, there appears as yet to be no immediate solution. With the stock engine putting out a claimed 70+ rwhp, it is said to be an excellent street performer, but good Super Twin racers are making better than 90 rwhp.

Fast Eddie, I would post some photo's of the Super Twin Paton, but for the life of me cannot work out the Photobucket thing, the introductory post which would advise on how to do this does not seem to fit the Photobucket web site details. I spent nearly all morning trying to sort it out, and quite frankly at my age have much better things to do with my time. Sorry about that, but let's hope that the press release carries pictures of the Super Twin model.

Click to expand...

Panic ye not about the photo's, I'm sure they'll appear soon enough in the press.

Could you give us one or two lines on this super twins class please? The basics of the rules is really what I'm interested in.

Which country is the Super Twins class running in, and which bikes are represented in it ? The 90 BHP figure does not take into account machine weight, allowed gearbox configuration and permitted engine mods. Because a bike turns out a big horsepower figure on the dyno, doesn't necessarily make it a winner. I presume the Kawasaki engine has a 180 degree crank ?

Although my opening post was about the Paton S1 Strada road bike and not about racing it seems the thread has turned in to a discussion about the super twin racer by Paton. all good discussion, here it is

In a nutshell, the regs for Supertwins allow for many changes, but the following may not be changed.
The frame must not be changed, but brackets etc may be removed or repositioned. Swingarm may not be changed.
Engine stroke may not be changed, and the rev limiter as standard equipment of the engine used may not be changed.
Engine capacity upper limit of 650cc may not be increased.
Crankshaft may not be replaced, but lightening, polishing and re balancing is permitted.
Cylinder head may not be changed, but may be ported for gas flow. Valves may not be replaced but may be modified.

Items that may be changed are:- wheels, brake calipers, discs and master cylinders.
rear suspension units may be modified or replaced, but original attachment points must be retained.
Front forks, yokes/tripple clamps may be modified or replaced
Pistons may be modified or replaced
Valve lift and duration may be changed, and gear wheels may be slotted to allow timing variation
Seat, tank, fairing may be modified or replaced
Exhaust system of originally homologated motorcycle may be modified or replace (bear in mind that in the Isle of Man,open exhausts may be used)
There are other details contained in the regulations, but these given here I would suggest are the main items.

Snotzo said:

In a nutshell, the regs for Supertwins allow for many changes, but the following may not be changed.
The frame must not be changed, but brackets etc may be removed or repositioned. Swingarm may not be changed.
.

Click to expand...

In some respects, Paton have pulled a fast one here - they HAVE changed the frame from the Kawasaki.
By calling it their own, they have completely sidestepped the regs on not changing frames or swingarms... ??

By all accounts, it will be Steve Lindsells son Ollie who will be racing it at the IoM...

Rohan said:

Snotzo said:

In a nutshell, the regs for Supertwins allow for many changes, but the following may not be changed.
The frame must not be changed, but brackets etc may be removed or repositioned. Swingarm may not be changed.
.

Click to expand...

In some respects, Paton have pulled a fast one here - they HAVE changed the frame from the Kawasaki.
By calling it their own, they have completely sidestepped the regs on not changing frames or swingarms... ??

By all accounts, it will be Steve Lindsells son Ollie who will be racing it at the IoM...

Click to expand...

Paton are a perfect example of what I was talking about in the earlier classic race thread, the one able have only two rules. i said that would leave the door wide open for those with the biggest wallets to find a way to use their wallets to win!
Thats exactly whats going on here. Paton aren't cheating of course. I'm sure there will be many who say that it is not 'in keeping with the spirit' etc. but if they're not cheating, then they're not cheating. There is no middle ground in racing!

If the motor of the Paton was 2 valves per cylinder, it wouldn't matter how much money you chucked at it, it would become subject to the law of diminishing returns the same as any big aircooled twin. It might be slightly lighter than an a 750 Seeley commando with aluminium barrels however it's advantage in a race would be mainly psychological.
Again we have situation where the race class specification is a bit silly. There are already twin cylinder race bikes about that would it into a 750cc class. If you are starting a new class it becomes a chicken and egg situation. You don't build a racer if the class is not fully established, you don't run a race class if the bikes are not there to support it. Personally I would have no problem racing against a 650cc four valve Kawasaki engine Paton - he would still have enough problems to keep him busy. The capacity difference might compensate for the advantage of having four valves per cylinder ?
What is in the gearboxes of the two bikes would be important. - No rules for suspension and tyres and fuel would be good.