part 2 - second alton starter failure - the fix

MexicoMike said:
As suggested earlier - it might be interesting to see if the Alton issues that some are experiencing are on OEM chain drives or belt drives.
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Chain drive here - primary was all original 1972 components. I run ATF for lube. Fiber plate clutch & push rod seal. DW EZ-pull clutch - one extra steel plate - LOL
 
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MexicoMike said:
As suggested earlier - it might be interesting to see if the Alton issues that some are experiencing are on OEM chain drives or belt drives.
Click to expand...
chain drive here - aside from the starter mod and cNw easy pull clutch, pretty much stock configuration.
 
This is all interesting conversation. I bought a kit anyway,,, for my 73' 850 and everything went without a hitch. However,, a buddy of mine found out I had the kit and he bought one to have me install for him. In hindsight I wish I hadn't because the key slot wasn't in the best of shape and the key sheared destroying the sprag before the bike left my garage. So if anyone that considers getting the kit be aware of this. Alton is going to replace the sprag no questions asked.
Another of thing I learned from the second install was that the stud from the cradle through the inner cover shouldn't be tightened down right away as per the instruction say .,, finger tight at best as I discovered the inner cover was getting tweaked and things weren't lining up like they should. As your cradle could be bent and even your motor could be cocked in the iso's. The snowball effect. It effected mostly trying to get the air gap right on the rotor and the clutch basket rubbed slightly. Don't take for granted that your 50 yr. old machine is laser straight .
 
Tim Smith said:
This is all interesting conversation. I bought a kit anyway,,, for my 73' 850 and everything went without a hitch. However,, a buddy of mine found out I had the kit and he bought one to have me install for him. In hindsight I wish I hadn't because the key slot wasn't in the best of shape and the key sheared destroying the sprag before the bike left my garage. So if anyone that considers getting the kit be aware of this. Alton is going to replace the sprag no questions asked.
Another of thing I learned from the second install was that the stud from the cradle through the inner cover shouldn't be tightened down right away as per the instruction say .,, finger tight at best as I discovered the inner cover was getting tweaked and things weren't lining up like they should. As your cradle could be bent and even your motor could be cocked in the iso's. The snowball effect. It effected mostly trying to get the air gap right on the rotor and the clutch basket rubbed slightly. Don't take for granted that your 50 yr. old machine is laser straight .
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What do you mean about the chain case stud being left loose? I'm pretty sure when I fitted mine I had to shim the stud the same as you would a standard chaicase?
Cheers
 
maylar said:
My first car was an NSU 1000. The owner's manual said that in an emergency you could put the car in first gear and use the starter motor to get you to the side of the road. I suspect that my cNw e-start might survive that - the Alton, not so much.
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that also comes in handy when the car won’t start, but starter still works..... especially when it stalls on a railway crossing and you can hear the train coming!
 
update on my "yves" fix - flats on the sprag clutch drive complete. sent the custom spacer back to my machinest to have the two holes for the engine sprocket pins, drilled or milled into the spacer. he's also going to fab up a couple 5/16 drive pins - that should finish the mod. everything's coming together perefectly and without a hitch, just taking a long time. this is what happens when your machinest lives 1000 miles away - :D. plenty to do and keeping busy with the spitfire resto though - sad state, both bikes down, and nothing to ride - :(
 
joe czech said:
i'll tell you what - you convince my wife of that, and you'll be my new, best, friend! :D :D :D
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That‘s easy, two options:

1) “look dear, my motorcycles are broken so I’m having to use the car. Motorcycles are FAR more economical and MUCH better for the environment than cars… I’m killing the polar bears by driving the car… I think that the best thing I can do to save the planet is buy another motorcyle so I don’t have to use the car”.

or

2) Buy one the same colour as your Norton and don’t tell her… she’ll never notice…!
 
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"Buy one the same colour as your Norton and don’t tell her… she’ll never notice…!'

I have a friend who has done that for years. He claims that his wife thinks his red 2020 Ducati Panigali is the same (red) bike he's had since they got married in the '80s! ;) BUT TBH, I suspect his wife is just humoring him. :rolleyes:
 
when I said leave the chain case stud loose it had already been shimmed before doing so. There is an install measurement of 25mm as a reference for the stud along with a diagram ,,, you need to adjust things according to your application. Overall it's an easy install when everything lines up.
How many times have you sat in front of your old rotor & Stator trying to get a clear air gap and have to deal with bent primary studs and an out of round stator.
I didn't have any issues on my bike install as I said when following the instructions. It was only on my friend's bike that there was an issue with alignment. At each step I tried to check and make sure no binding or rubbing was occurring. Just when you think things are Ok you better check again. Old bike parts don't stay straight forever ..... my bike is chain drive
 
Tim Smith said:
when I said leave the chain case stud loose it had already been shimmed before doing so. There is an install measurement of 25mm as a reference for the stud along with a diagram ,,, you need to adjust things according to your application. Overall it's an easy install when everything lines up.
How many times have you sat in front of your old rotor & Stator trying to get a clear air gap and have to deal with bent primary studs and an out of round stator.
I didn't have any issues on my bike install as I said when following the instructions. It was only on my friend's bike that there was an issue with alignment. At each step I tried to check and make sure no binding or rubbing was occurring. Just when you think things are Ok you better check again. Old bike parts don't stay straight forever ..... my bike is chain drive
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Sorry I don't get what you mean ? I'm not understanding why you would leave anything not fully tightened
The Norton commando engine jumps up and down on the isos
The chain case is held on by the central stud and three 1/4" bolts into the crankcase
The central stud is essential to stop the chain case from allowing extra up and down stress on the three chain case mounting bolts
Add in the weight of the starter motor/reduction gear/starter chain etc and you have a recipe for disaster if that chain case center stud isn't tight
In my opinion
Cheers
 
I wonder if the split tapered sleeve idea Toyota use on their Land Cruiser rear axle final drive flange bolts could be an answer to this problem as well. I the inside of the split spacer is parallel and the outside is tapered. If the drive gear for the starter had the matching taper in the bore, it would when tightened up, compress the spacer between the drive and the crankshaft in the same way the front drive sprocket is attached to the crank shaft. It is that taper which takes up all the torque. The key-way is just a locator.

Dereck
 
BAZ ....... I only left the chain case bolt loose during the alignment process then once everything is where it should be all screws and bolts and nuts tightened to spec.
 
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Hello Everyone, I've not been here much in the last year of so since I bought a Thruxton R .
Over lockdown I've been doing some work on my 72 Combat and got it running very nicely.
Yesterday I kicked it over, it backfired and then the Alton would only make starting noises.
Had this a few years back and it had sheared the three fitted plastic pins in the starter pinion gear.
I took it apart today and found the 5 replacement pins were fine.....
Long story short it had sheared off the key on the shaft and galled ( gauled) the shaft a bit.
It may have been doing it for a while and the kick back was the last straw.
It was installed by the instructions about 4 years ago and knowing how fragile it was have been careful with it.
As mentioned above its mostly a nice piece of kit other than you can't really expect to start a highish compresssion engine using what was an alternator mounting.
I'm thinking a new key and belleville washer might be the plan as my engineer friend has moved cities and no longer makes parts for me.
Would I buy an Alton again, at the same price I paid for my BMW R80/ST the answer to that is no.
Thanks
John
 
72Combat said:
Hello Everyone, I've not been here much in the last year of so since I bought a Thruxton R .
Over lockdown I've been doing some work on my 72 Combat and got it running very nicely.
Yesterday I kicked it over, it backfired and then the Alton would only make starting noises.
Had this a few years back and it had sheared the three fitted plastic pins in the starter pinion gear.
I took it apart today and found the 5 replacement pins were fine.....
Long story short it had sheared off the key on the shaft and galled ( gauled) the shaft a bit.
It may have been doing it for a while and the kick back was the last straw.
It was installed by the instructions about 4 years ago and knowing how fragile it was have been careful with it.
As mentioned above its mostly a nice piece of kit other than you can't really expect to start a highish compresssion engine using what was an alternator mounting.
I'm thinking a new key and belleville washer might be the plan as my engineer friend has moved cities and no longer makes parts for me.
Would I buy an Alton again, at the same price I paid for my BMW R80/ST the answer to that is no.
Thanks
John
Click to expand...
From a load perspective I think Alton (and you) are expecting far too much from that key - especially considering what it was designed to do.
Why don't don't you follow down the path of the OP and lock the starter mechanism to the primary pinion?
Makes far more sense.
I think it was Einstein that said "the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome." (or close to that!)
Cheers
 
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72Combat said:
Hello Everyone, I've not been here much in the last year of so since I bought a Thruxton R .
Over lockdown I've been doing some work on my 72 Combat and got it running very nicely.
Yesterday I kicked it over, it backfired and then the Alton would only make starting noises.
Had this a few years back and it had sheared the three fitted plastic pins in the starter pinion gear.
I took it apart today and found the 5 replacement pins were fine.....
Long story short it had sheared off the key on the shaft and galled ( gauled) the shaft a bit.
It may have been doing it for a while and the kick back was the last straw.
It was installed by the instructions about 4 years ago and knowing how fragile it was have been careful with it.
As mentioned above its mostly a nice piece of kit other than you can't really expect to start a highish compresssion engine using what was an alternator mounting.
I'm thinking a new key and belleville washer might be the plan as my engineer friend has moved cities and no longer makes parts for me.
Would I buy an Alton again, at the same price I paid for my BMW R80/ST the answer to that is no.
Thanks
John
Click to expand...
You could try James Simpson in Albany, he is a BSA guy and has made stuff for me before. Isn't always the fastest.
 
Hi all
I realise that I am very late to this thread, and have learned a huge amount from reading through (thanks). Yes the Alton kit fitted well and then worked well. Yes my woodruff key has sheared, yes I am using the original primary chain drive set up, yes the plastic "drive" pins sheared too (and then seemed to weld themselves into the housing so continued to provide drive from the starter!). The final failure was like a small engine seize while riding when it appeared that the sprag completely ceased to "freewheel" and engine and starter were locked together in both directions of rotation. On removal I find that the outer face of the spacer (wide end) is well blued and shredded but no longer contacts the back of the sprag chainwheel. Am I missing something? Or has the rotation been going on long enough to "machine off" a portion of the spacer ??? The sprag and spacer are junk now anyway so I need to contact Alton. Your wise opinions would be valued
 
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