Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Paton
- Thread starter Hobot
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 14,042
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
It blitzed most of an unlimited field. Extremely quick and obviously very modern inside. An RS125 with a good rider can beat most 600cc sports bikes around Winton Raceway. The bantam showed what can be done, but what does it mean ? It is irrelevant to Norton Commandos. Two strokes are an easy way to win races, and I am quite capable of building a fast one - a waste of money - no value! I race to have fun, and I always look for similar bikes to beat. When you achieve that, it has meaning. The mixed grid is a real bastard.
It blitzed most of an unlimited field. Extremely quick and obviously very modern inside. An RS125 with a good rider can beat most 600cc sports bikes around Winton Raceway. The bantam showed what can be done, but what does it mean ? It is irrelevant to Norton Commandos. Two strokes are an easy way to win races, and I am quite capable of building a fast one - a waste of money - no value! I race to have fun, and I always look for similar bikes to beat. When you achieve that, it has meaning. The mixed grid is a real bastard.
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
With apologies to hobot for going off topic with his thread;
I assume you have long forgotten the joy of the guys building their 125 racing Bantam here in the UK of which a whole club was based, around the, at the time, the common BSA Bantams. Unfortunately, these bikes and spares have become even more difficult & expensive to obtain, that they have had to turn to other marques, like the MZ250s to retain the cheap and affordable road racing, that this club was originally based. I was once a member of this club for a couple of seasons, but I raced in the bigger 500 production bike class, not the 125s. I watched a Bantam champion for many years, back in the day, Pete Tibbitts, riding his homebuilt bike showed just what could be done with these little 125cc bikes with their three speed gearboxes.
He might have blasted away the field, mind you his bike would rev to 13,000 RPM and was fitted with a reed valve, of which I am not sure this is still allowed. No way would the standard BSA crankshaft survive that.
You can bet you pension that the rider on this bike that you watched was having a tremendous amount of fun, the fact that he beat bigger machines might have shown you, if you forgive my description, that a lot of you were either sandbagging or he had the best tool for the job on that circuit, and he went home with a smile on his face from ear to ear. Ever ridden a modern water-cooled 125 road going street legal bike, acotrel, like a Suzuki RG125 :?:
http://bsabantamracing.tripod.com/banta ... anual.html
With apologies to hobot for going off topic with his thread;
I assume you have long forgotten the joy of the guys building their 125 racing Bantam here in the UK of which a whole club was based, around the, at the time, the common BSA Bantams. Unfortunately, these bikes and spares have become even more difficult & expensive to obtain, that they have had to turn to other marques, like the MZ250s to retain the cheap and affordable road racing, that this club was originally based. I was once a member of this club for a couple of seasons, but I raced in the bigger 500 production bike class, not the 125s. I watched a Bantam champion for many years, back in the day, Pete Tibbitts, riding his homebuilt bike showed just what could be done with these little 125cc bikes with their three speed gearboxes.
He might have blasted away the field, mind you his bike would rev to 13,000 RPM and was fitted with a reed valve, of which I am not sure this is still allowed. No way would the standard BSA crankshaft survive that.
You can bet you pension that the rider on this bike that you watched was having a tremendous amount of fun, the fact that he beat bigger machines might have shown you, if you forgive my description, that a lot of you were either sandbagging or he had the best tool for the job on that circuit, and he went home with a smile on his face from ear to ear. Ever ridden a modern water-cooled 125 road going street legal bike, acotrel, like a Suzuki RG125 :?:
http://bsabantamracing.tripod.com/banta ... anual.html
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 14,042
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
Bernhard, beating a bigger four stroke with a two stroke is not rocket science. I recently sold a very good TZ350 because in Australia, we are expected to race them against superbikes in historic races. It is a waste of a very good and expensive GP bike. The way things are with morons running our sport, there will never be races exclusively for two strokes. And this is what happened in history in many races - anything else was uncompetitive in any grade of race above C grade. Our historic racing really shits me, I don't want to even watch it. You might as well buy yourself an M21 BSA and go paddock bashing, that would hurt your pocket less and be much more fun. The mixed grid is bullshit !
If I'm going to race a two stroke, I want to r ace it against other two strokes, If I'm going to race a four stroke, I want to race it against other four strokes. Anything else is dangerous idiocy - the racing lines are DIFFERENT for the two types of bike, and when mixed the competition means nothing. There is one thing about riding my Seeley in historic racing with the mixed grid - if someone crosses my line with a two stroke and there is a shunt, I am more likely to stay on board.
When historic racing started in Australia, two no-hopers from the Velocette Owners Club who had never raced were involved. Since then it has been mainly run by sidecar riders. Some of our old A graders still ride occasionally, however never seem to get involved in organizing events. So what would you expect to be the result ?
I apologise for being such a bitter and twisted old man. (I don't think the rider grading committee even exists these days.)
Bernhard, beating a bigger four stroke with a two stroke is not rocket science. I recently sold a very good TZ350 because in Australia, we are expected to race them against superbikes in historic races. It is a waste of a very good and expensive GP bike. The way things are with morons running our sport, there will never be races exclusively for two strokes. And this is what happened in history in many races - anything else was uncompetitive in any grade of race above C grade. Our historic racing really shits me, I don't want to even watch it. You might as well buy yourself an M21 BSA and go paddock bashing, that would hurt your pocket less and be much more fun. The mixed grid is bullshit !
If I'm going to race a two stroke, I want to r ace it against other two strokes, If I'm going to race a four stroke, I want to race it against other four strokes. Anything else is dangerous idiocy - the racing lines are DIFFERENT for the two types of bike, and when mixed the competition means nothing. There is one thing about riding my Seeley in historic racing with the mixed grid - if someone crosses my line with a two stroke and there is a shunt, I am more likely to stay on board.
When historic racing started in Australia, two no-hopers from the Velocette Owners Club who had never raced were involved. Since then it has been mainly run by sidecar riders. Some of our old A graders still ride occasionally, however never seem to get involved in organizing events. So what would you expect to be the result ?
I apologise for being such a bitter and twisted old man. (I don't think the rider grading committee even exists these days.)
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
This thread was never on topic - and hobot still hasn't corrected the thread title !
The bike that dominated was a Paton.
The pushrod Enfield came 4th or 5th was it - still a remarkable performance....
Bernhard said:
This thread was never on topic - and hobot still hasn't corrected the thread title !
The bike that dominated was a Paton.
The pushrod Enfield came 4th or 5th was it - still a remarkable performance....
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
+1
Aco - you are using this forum to vent your frustration about rules of Australian classic racing that we can do nothing about. I don't mind reading long posts if they are informative and helpful, but whinging is just tedious. You are not the only one who has had to put up with silly regulations and practices. In Ireland this season, there are lots of 500s but very few 750s and unlimited bikes, so they lumped the larger bikes in with the 500s and the class is now 500cc and upwards. I am sure people in other countries have gripes about rules, etc., but we don't fill up these pages complaining about them.
Rohan said:
+1
Aco - you are using this forum to vent your frustration about rules of Australian classic racing that we can do nothing about. I don't mind reading long posts if they are informative and helpful, but whinging is just tedious. You are not the only one who has had to put up with silly regulations and practices. In Ireland this season, there are lots of 500s but very few 750s and unlimited bikes, so they lumped the larger bikes in with the 500s and the class is now 500cc and upwards. I am sure people in other countries have gripes about rules, etc., but we don't fill up these pages complaining about them.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Hm now that's sure tempting to revert back to original post title I just copied and pasted before error pointed out on two other lists. There are references to a fella that went around hot rod forums doing stuff like that for fun and broke up many a forum.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 14,042
Daveh, The bikes which competed in real racing against the Paton 500, were the MV3 - 500 and the Honda 500 four, and a few Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki two strokes, NOT single cylinder 500cc Royal Enfields. It might be good to see a variety of old racing bikes circulating together, however it means nothing unless they are of the same genre.
Linsdell has got a Royal Enfield going fast and that is good - end of story.
Linsdell has got a Royal Enfield going fast and that is good - end of story.
SteveA
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2011
- Messages
- 3,380
Ollie's results are a testament to three things.....
His riding ability and bravery in returning to the IoM and riding at this level, and his father's motorcycle engineering and preparation ability.......
The choice of bike is almost incidental to the achievement! Patons are certainly an anomoly in classic racing, being modern build motorcycles attributed as Patons rather than replicas because they are built by Paton.....with a very authentic look to them, but surely a revised spec....but they have that in common with just about every classic racer....
As I see it Steve was the only person who prepared one that ran all week without failure...a very significant contribution.....otherwise we may possibly have read about Ollie coming second to full professional road racer John McGuiness (no mean feat in itself), or a Paton dominated podium....or 3 very pretty bikes Italian bikes that failed to deliver...
Whatever, well done the Linsdells....
His riding ability and bravery in returning to the IoM and riding at this level, and his father's motorcycle engineering and preparation ability.......
The choice of bike is almost incidental to the achievement! Patons are certainly an anomoly in classic racing, being modern build motorcycles attributed as Patons rather than replicas because they are built by Paton.....with a very authentic look to them, but surely a revised spec....but they have that in common with just about every classic racer....
As I see it Steve was the only person who prepared one that ran all week without failure...a very significant contribution.....otherwise we may possibly have read about Ollie coming second to full professional road racer John McGuiness (no mean feat in itself), or a Paton dominated podium....or 3 very pretty bikes Italian bikes that failed to deliver...
Whatever, well done the Linsdells....
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 14,042
A Paton is a vey convincing argument. Riding one on the IOM is not something that I want to do. I don't have the mentality for that. I know my own riding style, and it could be terminal in that environment. Congratulations to Ollie - well done. I knew Ken Blake quite well, he was one of our best riders - two laps and it was all over for him.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2013
- Messages
- 2
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
beng said:
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
Same as it was during the classic era, when privateers on singles were up against big money 3- and 4-cylinder machinery and the best riders. Racing is a spectacle and spectators want to see top riders on the best bikes, and this was always so. I can't see how you can control the big spenders without also damaging the sport. If innovation and creativity are stifled, you remove the incentive for builders and riders to compete against each other and if you stop the exotic bikes and top riders, spectator interest will dry up.
Original classic bikes are getting too old to be raced safely. Once the supplies of genuine engine cases or cranks or frames dry up, replica parts will be needed to keep the bikes going, which some people see as not authentic. I don't see a problem with a cylinder head which is new but is the same as the batches of heads made by the factory, and I don't see a problem with entire replica bikes provided they use the same design of parts that were available back in the day. I do have a problem with a 4 valve head if it was never used in the classic era, or four pot calipers, etc. If Norton had survived and continued to make its over-the-counter racers, it would still have incorporated modifications and improvements within the classic rules that many engine and chassis builders make today. Compare with period houses - the external appearance should remain the same, and repaired with the same stone, mortar, timber etc but owners are not expected to live without electricity or indoor toilets!
Classic racing won't survive unless there is a continuing stream of people who have an incentive to come into the sport, to replace the guys who have hung up their spurs and taken their authentic bikes with them. By all means keep 500cc 4 strokes together and don't lump them in with TZs, but If you put too many restrictions on eligibility or creativity, people will lose interest. You will be left with a bunch of authentic classics that can only be paraded because they have become too valuable or are unsafe to race.
fzr400rrsp said:
Same as it was during the classic era, when privateers on singles were up against big money 3- and 4-cylinder machinery and the best riders. Racing is a spectacle and spectators want to see top riders on the best bikes, and this was always so. I can't see how you can control the big spenders without also damaging the sport. If innovation and creativity are stifled, you remove the incentive for builders and riders to compete against each other and if you stop the exotic bikes and top riders, spectator interest will dry up.
Original classic bikes are getting too old to be raced safely. Once the supplies of genuine engine cases or cranks or frames dry up, replica parts will be needed to keep the bikes going, which some people see as not authentic. I don't see a problem with a cylinder head which is new but is the same as the batches of heads made by the factory, and I don't see a problem with entire replica bikes provided they use the same design of parts that were available back in the day. I do have a problem with a 4 valve head if it was never used in the classic era, or four pot calipers, etc. If Norton had survived and continued to make its over-the-counter racers, it would still have incorporated modifications and improvements within the classic rules that many engine and chassis builders make today. Compare with period houses - the external appearance should remain the same, and repaired with the same stone, mortar, timber etc but owners are not expected to live without electricity or indoor toilets!
Classic racing won't survive unless there is a continuing stream of people who have an incentive to come into the sport, to replace the guys who have hung up their spurs and taken their authentic bikes with them. By all means keep 500cc 4 strokes together and don't lump them in with TZs, but If you put too many restrictions on eligibility or creativity, people will lose interest. You will be left with a bunch of authentic classics that can only be paraded because they have become too valuable or are unsafe to race.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 14,042
Daveh, I totally agree with your comments. As long as four strokes have air cooled engines with two valve cylinder heads and up to 3 cylinders, there is no reason they cannot all race together in capacity classes, regardless of any other technology aspect or year of manufacture. A more lassez-faire approach to classic racing could be a very good thing. In Australia we have races which include manx nortons with two strokes, yet are prohibited from racing Seeley G50s in those races, because of the year of manufacture and the type of brakes used. There must be a better way forward.
Personally, I would never own a genuine Manx Norton - they are only suitable for riding in demonstrations. Racing one in Australian historic racing is like hanging the Mona Lisa in your toilet - might brighten up the proceedings ? I absolutely love Molnar Manxes, and Walmsley Seeley G50s and Gold Star BSAs - that's what we should have always been racing since 1963 when decent two strokes appeared - SEPARATE CLASSES ! !
Personally, I would never own a genuine Manx Norton - they are only suitable for riding in demonstrations. Racing one in Australian historic racing is like hanging the Mona Lisa in your toilet - might brighten up the proceedings ? I absolutely love Molnar Manxes, and Walmsley Seeley G50s and Gold Star BSAs - that's what we should have always been racing since 1963 when decent two strokes appeared - SEPARATE CLASSES ! !
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
Hello there everybody... first post from me here my name is Karl and i am in the northwest of England. I have to agree with the above statement and in my limited experience it happens in all classes at club level In my local club races I gave up the forgotten era formula when rich blokes started putting mercenary jockeys on ex gp500 machines, but I digress. I have found someone willing to swop my 99 motor for an 88 motor as a basis for a domiracer. its going to be a proper garden shed affair and as such can anybody tell me where I can find a copy of the specs and tuning notes etc for the Datona spec 88ss machines circa 1964 I believe they were not that far from standard really. I have a downdraft head .
I grew up with this Norton I inherited it from my Dad, its a mutt though. in fact on the log book it was originally a 500 so its going to be more original!
All advice gratefully received Regards Karl Bovill[/quote]
Welcome to the forum.
The 500 Domiracer was discussed on this forum further back; there was a lot of information there.
You are unlikely to emulate the 1961 Norton works racer build at the Bracebridge Street shop by D. Helne, this had chrome plated Alloy barrels, a single Dykes piston ring, eccentric rockers e.t.c. Paul Dunstall said nothing fitted from the standard Norton twin. (as regards the engine)
There is a section about it in Mick Walker’s book of the Norton Dominator.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 123&type=3
Norton 500 1962 Daytona made from standard parts
norton-manx-and-twins-daytona-t11232-15.html
Hello there everybody... first post from me here my name is Karl and i am in the northwest of England. I have to agree with the above statement and in my limited experience it happens in all classes at club level In my local club races I gave up the forgotten era formula when rich blokes started putting mercenary jockeys on ex gp500 machines, but I digress. I have found someone willing to swop my 99 motor for an 88 motor as a basis for a domiracer. its going to be a proper garden shed affair and as such can anybody tell me where I can find a copy of the specs and tuning notes etc for the Datona spec 88ss machines circa 1964 I believe they were not that far from standard really. I have a downdraft head .
I grew up with this Norton I inherited it from my Dad, its a mutt though. in fact on the log book it was originally a 500 so its going to be more original!
All advice gratefully received Regards Karl Bovill[/quote]
Welcome to the forum.
The 500 Domiracer was discussed on this forum further back; there was a lot of information there.
You are unlikely to emulate the 1961 Norton works racer build at the Bracebridge Street shop by D. Helne, this had chrome plated Alloy barrels, a single Dykes piston ring, eccentric rockers e.t.c. Paul Dunstall said nothing fitted from the standard Norton twin. (as regards the engine)
There is a section about it in Mick Walker’s book of the Norton Dominator.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 123&type=3
Norton 500 1962 Daytona made from standard parts
norton-manx-and-twins-daytona-t11232-15.html
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2012
- Messages
- 14,042
It should be possible to build a very good motor out of a 500cc dominator engine. If I was going to do it, I'd take a step back, and have a good think about the options. You might be better off to find a later bigger motor, and short stroke it - as long as it looks similar. In building any race bike, the gearbox is always the starting point. You cannot live with a top end motor without a decent box.
Re: Olie Linsdell dominates Classic TT - on a Royal Enfield
If someone can make a pushrod Enfield go through the IoM speedtrap at 133 mph, then with enough determination anything is possible ??
(EDIT - I may have inadvertantly poorly worded this, as a 133 mph lap..!!.)
You can buy alloy cylinders for dommies, and any good shop can plate the bores.
Manx pistons had only a single ring, and omega supply suitable pistons to suit anything ?
etc etc.
Depending on the depth of your pockets, and how competitive you want to make an old engine....
Sir Eddy on this board, and his son, have a highly modded dommie enfine for a LSR attempts.
Whether the performance will match, we watch with hope and interest !
And then there is this, for Team Yellow Peril.
Look at that crank. And the lobes on that cam...
Bernhard said:
If someone can make a pushrod Enfield go through the IoM speedtrap at 133 mph, then with enough determination anything is possible ??
(EDIT - I may have inadvertantly poorly worded this, as a 133 mph lap..!!.)
You can buy alloy cylinders for dommies, and any good shop can plate the bores.
Manx pistons had only a single ring, and omega supply suitable pistons to suit anything ?
etc etc.
Depending on the depth of your pockets, and how competitive you want to make an old engine....
Sir Eddy on this board, and his son, have a highly modded dommie enfine for a LSR attempts.
Whether the performance will match, we watch with hope and interest !
And then there is this, for Team Yellow Peril.
Look at that crank. And the lobes on that cam...
