Oil (Type/Weight)

peckster
as you work for shell can you ask your lube people about the lack of zink in the latest formulation of rotela now called triple T. also is the old high zink stuff still made?


windy

If any one is intrested in reading more about zinc levels,have a look at LNengineering.com it's an aircooled porshe,vw[same thing] race site, click on lubricants.It would appear modern oils are made to meet emmision standards first wear factors second. :roll:

It's nice no one has gone insane here over an oil discussion. On other boards this can lead to strange behavior.
I've seen a number of things here I can agree with. First Rotella is probably most cost effective for you guys. I think I paid ten bucks or so a quart for the low production Redline in my bike. I had to drive several towns away to get it too. I can get Rotella anywhere. I think the synthetic is worth it to me personally.
My bike has only a stock Atlas type oil bag. I reckon a couple quarts of the most heat resistant stuff I can get is worth it. I also don't change the oil very often on a bike like this.
My bikes that get the mileage are the Goldwings. On them I think the Rotella offers plenty of protection and is cost effective.
If you are worried that Rotella does not have enough zinc pick an additive the has it and add some.

bill said:

peckster
as you work for shell can you ask your lube people about the lack of zink in the latest formulation of rotela now called triple T. also is the old high zink stuff still made?


windy

Click to expand...

Will do.

oil (type?weight)

Ludwig, very nice tank, tis is what we use.
jt

I'm amazed. That tank is so close to the design I had made up by a fire engine company and rode with for years. Ialso ran the oil through the frame tube though. You even mounted the battery in the same spot. I guess that is just a logical way to do the job.

Over the weekend, I did some more research into the oil issue, and have one more question:

Does anybody know the range of normal operating temperatures (or limits) for the 850 Commando motors?

nomadwarmachine said:

Does anybody know the range of normal operating temperatures (or limits) for the 850 Commando motors?

Click to expand...

I don't know the 'official' values, but if you read the article that ludwg and I both posted the link to (page 1 of this thread) you will see the temperatures that Alan Goldwater actually got on his bike, which he says are typical.

bill said:

peckster
as you work for shell can you ask your lube people about the lack of zink in the latest formulation of rotela now called triple T. also is the old high zink stuff still made?


windy

Click to expand...

Here's what I got:

This question is a little mis-stated as I am aware of the concern from several souces in the US. There is zinc in Rotella T. It comes in the form of Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP), which is well proven anti-wear chemistry. As a result of Rotella T upgrading to API CJ-4 quality, and API CJ-4 having restrictions on Phosporous content in the oil (as there is evidence that it negatively affects catalyst performance), the amount of ZDDP in the oil has been reduced to meet the phosphorous requirements. This has happened basically to all CJ-4 products - all will have a maximum amount of zinc of approximately 1200-1300 ppm.

Historically in API CI-4 and CH-4 and previous categories, the Zinc content was higher - approximately 1300-1500 ppm. Therefore, there was some concern within the vintage motorcycle industry and vintage car industry that the reduced Zinc (via ZDDP) content would negatively affect wear performance in these engines. We have not found that to be true, and the industry as a whole believes that wear protection for API CJ-4 oils are better than previous categories of oil.

I don't know if you've been to the Rotella T website, but there is a forum page where they have a forum on Motorcycles, and it contains lots of unsolicited positive feedback on Rotella T performance both in new and older bikes. Believe they have even had discussions about the Zinc question, either in the Motorcycle forum or other forums. Might be worth checking out.

http://www.shellusserver.com/ubbthreads ... p?ubb=cfrm

I still like the the 20W-50 oils in my Norton and used to use the old Kendall 20W-50 4-stroke motorcycle oil since Day 1. The original Kendall is gone but Brad Penn (in Bradford PA aka the middle of nowhere) has been making "The Green Oil" in the old Kendall facility. They have a 20W-50 4-stroke motorcycle oil (Product # 7157) that is SJ rated and still has the ZDDP. This is a good alternative for those of us who don't like synthetics.

Russ

Is there anyway to tell from the bottle or API specs if the oil contains the desired ZDDP?

Look the ingredients up on their website. Most of these guys list all that in the MSDS at worst.

There are a number of oil comparison charts listing ZDDP on the web that can be found by Googling. However these oil companies change formulae more frequently than you change your underwear (hopefully). The ZDDP has been legislated out because the catalytic converters don't like it. So oils with later API ratings such as SL and SM generally have reduced ZDDP. Look for SF, SG or SJ and check the specs too. There is tons of info and misinfo on the web about oils and that is why flame wars erupt on so many sites.

Agree regarding the tendency for such a seemingly innocuous topic to stoke flame wars. I am still on the fence regarding dino/synthetic, but I think I will go ahead with the Redline 20W50 synthetic and the MT-90, assuming these will not blow all the seals in my motor & transmission.

peckster

thanks for taking the time to check on this. looks like your only talking 300 ppm spread from CI-CH to CJ and that is using the high side of CI CH to the low side of CJ . IMHO I would not be scared of running the new formula. It looks like the main thing was to hold a closer tolerance on the ZDDP.

synthetic oils were originally developed for use in aircraft jet engines. ergo the hi temp tolerance. i once saw a demonstration of lubricity involving royal purple and mobil 1. a generator had a plain bearing keyed to it's shaft. a hinged arm mounted directly above the generator held another fixed plain bearing. when the bearings were brought into contact w/ a measured pressure applied and the generator turning you could measure the lubricity of the oiul applied to the bearing surfaces via ammeter or in this case plain eyesight. royal purple outperformed mobil 1 by a very large margin. this was 10 years ago. i don't know what a current test would reveal. i use royal purple in everything.

I think Mobile 1 is a product of it's own advertising. Something akin to a famous brand of U.S. beer from St. Louis. Both have suspect quality, but very popular. I do know the owner of Web Camshafts deplores Mobil 1. Tell her you've been using Mobil 1 in your Norton and you'll get an earful. And I, having drunk beers from all over the world, would attest to the poor quality (in my opinion) of the aforementioned beer.

Ah, the synthetic vs. mineral oil discussion, a common topic amongst all motorcycle and automotive website discussion forums.

FWIW, I use Castrol Grand Prix 20-50 in my 72'Roadster, mainly because that is what the previous owner said he'd used for 20 years; my research indicates it has reasonable ZDDP content. Oil changes are at or before 1000 miles. As for oil filters, I use K&N filters listed for Ducati.

I have experience with other vintage bikes springing leaks when switched to synthetic so I stick with mineral oil on old bikes and change it very often, especially if there is not a decent oil filter fitted.

Derek.

Synthetic should be ok after a fresh rebuild. Its seems most people have troubles switching on a engine that has some milage. Once I do a rebuild, Ill be switching to all synthetics. Just as a note, at last years Rolex GT race in New Jersey I had some time to speak to one of the drivers. They blew a oil cooler in the first part of the race, and had to only run one oil cooler. They ran with 280+ oil temps for 2 1/2 hours. This was supposedly on Castol Syntec. Granted its a racing motor and a automobile, but I think with a high quality synthetic on our bikes, it should be able to handle the temps we can deal with.

Talking oil on a bike forum is like talking religion - get ten people together, you'll get 11 opinions.

Older engines, with flat tappets, need oil with a decent level of a zinc compound, zddp. On a bike like the commando, oil should be changed when its dirty or has been fouled. On my bike, that's about every 2500 miles, but I ride it regularly, and usually get the oil up to temperature for a good while. Someone who rides occasionally or only for short distances, will need to change with fewer miles.