Norton speed record at Bonneville

At the Bub event, If you are racing for records and not the run what you brung class you must purchase your gas from the people on the salt, Then they seal the tank to make sure it's not played with. It's a high octane mix so it will work in the higher compression motors people bring. Not only does the elevation come into effect but the air can be very dry also, Also the salt itself does not lend itself to good traction and you lose something there too. Sometimes newbees show up and say they hope to run 180 190 and then have trouble running 160, Bonneville can humble those who have never been there. A bit different than Maxton. Well just saw the above post LOL.

The salt doesn't necessarily rob a fixed MPH from your capabilities, it's more of a varying percentage of the power that's being put down at the point of friction, and a percentage of the wind resistance (not necessarily the same percentage, or even related).

In the higher HP machines, it increases because traction is precious and very easily overcome with excessive power (wheelspin). Trying to increase traction with weight is an excercise in futility combined with diminishing marginal utility.

At higher speeds, wind resistance is increased. Trying to build a vehicle that presents itself to the wind as a small patch means inherent instability; another excercise in weighing the benefits and liabilities.

Regardless of the headaches, misery and futility of it all, IT'S FUN AND ADDICTING!

While we're on Bonneville, Can someone answer some questions that I've wondered about for many years.
Don't be too Technical.
# 1.. Methanol is Water based ? and can't be mixed with Petrol.
# 2.. Methanol and Nitromethane are compatible and can be mixed ? (together)
# 3.. Nitrous Oxide is..? Nitromethane + ?
# 4.. Can any be mixed with Petrol. (old style petrol)
# 5.. Do you have to qualify for Bonne before you get there, I'm not sure how you would do that,
or is all qualifying done on site.
# 6.. How long is the Track... Get up to speed--Timed section--Run down area.
# 7.. Is there only one track on race day.
# 8.. How many entries on average.
# 9.. How long does the event go for, weather permitting.
# 10.Would i have to fit new tyres to the Indian, or will shoe polish do.
Thanks AC.

1 no 2 yes 3 no 4 yes 5 yes 6 they have both long course and short course 7 no 8 hundreds 9 5 days 10 lol lol but they do shave tires. This is all for the Bub event which is motorcycles only.

Good lad, thank you.
Be more technical with # 1.

Here in the U.S. they mix it with our pump gas now, In some states up to 15 %. M85 and E85 are both just different forms of alcohol.

Ok, The reason I asked is because many years ago, probably 74/75/76, in Aust. Motocross, They banned the use of any thing other than
straight petrol. But prior to that I remember being told by one of the Fathers of another lad, that if you need to lean of your mixture, (Methanol),
and don't have the right jets, you could.. add a small portion of WATER to your fuel.
OK, now I'm probably being laughed at,... It sounds allmost feasable,
True ? or do I need to go and find this bloke and SPEAK to him severely.
I never used Methanol, at that stage. Did use it later in Long track, but never tried his suggestion.
Now i've upset myself. lol.

I've always wondered why you never see airboxes on Bonneville bikes. You'd think they might help, what with the thin air. Even without a front facing snorkel they can be tuned to do their resonance thing in a specific powerband for a few hp's, and fill in that area in front of the oiltank. Maybe they don't work so great in the thinner air.

Yes you CAN mix methanol with petrol.

I used to race with a mix of 75% methonal and 25% race gas. A higher percentage of gasoline will just fall out of suspension. I roadraced a fast 750 featherbed at willow springs where the weather was hot. Any Nort that puts out HP will overheat. Oil coolers didn't help. So the solution was to go to the methanol blend. But I didn't want to go to straight methanol because of corrosion problems and safty issues (it burns invisible). You can raise the compression and adjust your timing for best performance. But my reason was just to keep the motor from cooking.


The 750 featherbed with home made guillotine carbs - this bike was still on gas but getting hot.


These were my 2nd set of home made carbs for the 850 monoshock. They were 38mm and ran the methanol mix.

Jim, simply outrageous fueling and cooling invocations!. Burning lots of mixture and dumping the excess heat may be limiting factor on Ms. Peel so can't touch WOT for long. My Peel ain't really a race bike just a hooligan bike with a punch that turns real good in short spurts. Only way I can conceive staying on power enough for a top speed run or long road race would be ducting air past fins and exterior water mist cooling. P51 Mustangs have oil coolers that use water spray and heat expansion to both cool and gave thrust.

There are formulas for size of ram air inlets vs the speed of air and size of engine needs, for the best compromise of drag vs oxygen density assist.

Lack of oxygen density to make power is more a drag than the reduced air density to power through, especially as speed rises.

Humidity displaces denser O2 molecules as experienced parachutist can testify.
Yet some humidity helps absorb some heat of compression and temper combustion speed-detonation.

Most stable go fast has center of air pressure/drag behind the center of gravity.
A dart for instance. One of my and others thought racers are built more like the rocket chariots in Star Wars films, power plant/most mass and traction/drive trust at front, waisted in the middle and pilot in cockpit at rear. Soar planes has somewhat similar configuration.

The BUB short course is 3 miles - 1 mile run-up, 1 MILE THROUGH TRAPS (you have to hold it wide open for a full mile), and 1 mile runoff.

The International / Long course is 11 miles.

Methanol is used for racing as opposed to the ethanol used to dilute pump gas, methanol is toxic and hygroscopic, ie it will absorb water from the atmosphere, this is the reason metho is so corrosive. methanol is not compatable with mineral oil and the old school soulution was to use castor based oil, eg castrol R .
The beauty of methanol is as it vaporises it absorbs heat creating a very cold and dense fuel mixture as can be seen by the ice that forms on the carbys of bikes, or injector stacks on alcohol drag cars and thus the ability to run a much higher compression ratio, commomly 12:1 to 14:1 without detonation.
The air fuel ratio required for metho is about 4.5:1, ie you will use three times as much metho as you would for petrol, so not very economical.
It sounds awesome out the back of a megaphone too!

A note for the other spectators like me. I rode from Dallas to "the Salt" a couple years ago on a roadKing. Speed Week is a real treat. I knew a few teams who planned to race so that made it somewhat more familiar when I arrived. We spectators pay a small fee, maybe 20 if I recall. From there you get "all access". You don't park in some remote lot & watch from grandStands. I rode right into the pit, found Big D Cycle, hung out a bit & drank their water. Rode directly to the pre-staging & staging, mixed & mingled with everyone. All were more than happy to share their stories & data. Cars, trucks, bikes all gMixxed! I was able to walk right up to the starting line, stand next to guys ready to race, take pictures & video, it was fantastic. I remained mindful that they had a task at hand so I stayed out of the way & more so the closer they got to the starting line. I highly recommend a visit. I'm going back.

Ps
The salt is a lake bed that dries out for the summer. If there is late season rain, there is less time for drying which can result in less space allowed for track. I believe the more drying that occurs, the more courses they can run. I was there on a late rain year & I recall there were only two courses. Longer waiting time for racers also resulting in some teams choosing not to attend.

Spectator view.

"methanol is not compatable with mineral oil" (Methanol) I wonder how they got it to work in the 70's 80's and 90's. In the U.S. they were using it with gas because of the oil crisis, Also other countries were also using it that is until they found it was ruining the components of cars.

Thank you fellas, soooo,
Is it feasable to say that it is possible to weaken (lean) Methanol by adding water.???

Methanol aka wood alcohol is miscible with water but won't burn if much water added and the water in it just helps it oxidize. Here's a blip I found on this fuel for interest beyond my need to know. What is neat is low doses are the fragrances added to race fuels in circle track and such. Hi doses are sickening.
Its feed in at ~2.5 times the amount of gasoline.

When I go see a C.A.R.T. race I always spend time in the pits, the crews have told me several problems with methanol based fuels. As stated above the corrosion factor is VERY high, they must "pickle" the engines after every race with gasoline to help minimize the corrosion, It very odd to hear that engine revving at one note and when the gas gets to the engine the tone drops to a much lover note. The oil is changed after most practice runs and after the race it's changed before the car goes back in the trailer. The other problem is the toxic nature of methanol, exhaust fumes contain formaldehyde and methanol can get into your skin very rapidly causing you to get sick. Nothing to joke around with. Fire is another issue, while easy to put out it very hard to see. I was at a race in Long Beach where the fuel man sprayed a small amount of fuel over the driver and it lit. He came out of the car jumping and rolling on the ground, you couldn't see a thing. They put him out very quickly with the water hose that they spray the cars with during refueling. He jumped back in the car wet driving suite and all. Yes he did finish the race...

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I used 25% gasoline in the methanol so you could see it burn and get a little color on the plugs. A little gas also solved the corrosion problem or at least brought it under control. I thought it was an ideal race fuel - except for the consumption rate.

Torco oil was compatible with methanol when I used it in the mid 1980s - it worked great.

In a 2.2L Dodge turbo car, I run meth injection. It consists of a pump, a tank, and a supplemental injector that injects, at high pressure, a 50/50 methanol and distilled water mix into the intake tract. An adjustable pressure switch senses manifold vacuum/pressure and at 15 PSI triggers a solenoid that opens a valve that releases the 50/50 mix just downstream of the intercooler but upstream of the throttle plate.

The meth injection allows me to run greater than 20 pounds of boost on 91 octane. As for oxidation, I have had the engine apart and I see zero signs of corrosion; the meth, I imagine, is cleaned out of the intake tract/head/cylinders by the off boost operations below the 15 pound trigger point. Unavoidably, there is blowby but the PCV system whenever the engine is not in boost, puts a constant vacuum on the crankcase. Maybe continuous use of oft changed synthetic oil helps offset the corrosion?

uh oh, off track here. Bonneville should be on every gear head's bucket list; it is a surreal experience to stand on a ladder or the hood of a car, turn 360* and see the curve of the earth and mountains surrounding that valley floating in air - on a mirage of blue sky.

The meth injection allows me to run greater than 20 pounds of boost on 91 octane. As for oxidation, I have had the engine apart and I see zero signs of corrosion; the meth, I imagine, is cleaned out of the intake tract/head/cylinders by the off boost operations below the 15 pound trigger point. Unavoidably, there is blowby but the PCV system whenever the engine is not in boost, puts a constant vacuum on the crankcase. Maybe continuous use of oft changed synthetic oil helps offset the corrosion?

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This too is one of Ms Peel's secret weapons but hope only water needed after the impeller for street use, but if she needs more combustion cooling then a 2nd tank with plain methanol will kick in to spray ahead of the impeller which will greatly increase its efficiency and density of boosting even higher.

I'm as impressed as anyone on the maxed out mods of Norton extremists yet when comparing Peel's set up about only thing not up to similar level of special is her early Combat head but that is mostly over come with boost. Maybe before I die can do a top speed run what ya brung just to see what she'll do or bust. Likely have to be at one of the airport land speed locations rather that Salt Lake.

Thanks JIm for further education on methanol+gasoline in your intense combustion efforts, somehow good to know even if will never apply to me : (

Hobot, for most modified bike, the standing mile isn't enough room to get them fully wound up (although that non-streamlined 'busa running 287 from flat-footed is as impressive as any number i've ever seen).

Just get out to the BUB meet on the salt ASAP (maybe 2012?).