- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 11,527
lcrken said:
Don't try to confuse the haters with proof. They no likey that. :roll:
Norton Racing
- Thread starter comnoz
- Start date
Don't try to confuse the haters with proof. They no likey that. :roll:
I don't think it's about hating. I just think it's about real world facts. How many bikes do Ducati/Honda?Yamaha have to sell to fund their racing efforts? How much money do they make from their racing?
If there was any money in racing for the manufacturers, then some of the biggest teams in the world of motor sport wouldn't need sponsors, now would they? They could afford to run their bikes with just one name on their bikes, like MV used to. But they don't, do they?
How much do the top racers get paid every year? Why would you pay some back marker to race your bike to 21st place? A bit of a pointless exercise from any viewpoint.
I think the people who believe that Norton couldn't, and won't run a competitive MotoGP team are merely realists. It doesn't add up. I think they should concentrate their efforts on getting bikes on the road which are going to pay the bills rather than throwing money at a GP team.
Call me a cynic, but a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist.
If there was any money in racing for the manufacturers, then some of the biggest teams in the world of motor sport wouldn't need sponsors, now would they? They could afford to run their bikes with just one name on their bikes, like MV used to. But they don't, do they?
How much do the top racers get paid every year? Why would you pay some back marker to race your bike to 21st place? A bit of a pointless exercise from any viewpoint.
I think the people who believe that Norton couldn't, and won't run a competitive MotoGP team are merely realists. It doesn't add up. I think they should concentrate their efforts on getting bikes on the road which are going to pay the bills rather than throwing money at a GP team.
Call me a cynic, but a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2004
- Messages
- 20,455
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2010
- Messages
- 30
Another 'cynic' replies
Consider also that in the 1989 Irish NW200 road race, the Norton rotary was speed-trapped at 189mph . "Good for 200mph on pavement at sea level" doesn't seem much like progress over the last twenty years.
And a production bike that was legal in Germany, at that. None of that 'register-anything-with-wheels-and-an-engine-for-£70' UK Single Vehicle Approval dodge; a fully TUV homologated bike saleable anywhere in Europe from day 1.L.A.B said:
Consider also that in the 1989 Irish NW200 road race, the Norton rotary was speed-trapped at 189mph . "Good for 200mph on pavement at sea level" doesn't seem much like progress over the last twenty years.
Vulin said:
All of the production Norton Rotarys have been PP, other than the fact that they are a twin rotor design they have almost nothing in common with the Mazda engines. The rotors are charge cooled as opposed to oil cooled in the Mazda, possibly the most significant difference is the difference in rotor width to combustion chamber (rotor face) length, the Norton ones are a lot more square so the flame front isnt so long, eliminating the need for the additional one or two spark plugs per rotor of the Mazda engine. They were somewhat of an oddity to ride, the closest comparison would be to an electric motor, a very linear and smooth power delivery.
The capacities are always interesting as well, I would assume that the 700cc means each rotor has an individual combustion chamber volume at the end of the inlet cycle of 350cc. From memory I think that the Interpol IIs were called 1500cc for a while
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2009
- Messages
- 11,527
marston rhode said:
Considering there hasn't been any development in the last 20 years is it really surprising?
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2010
- Messages
- 673
L.A.B. said:
I confess! Over a decade ago I got carried away (and so did all of my money at the time, and more, in the process....). The Carole Nash picture shows the "ugly duck" prototype, though, the production version looked very different. See http://www.nortonmotors.de/Norton%20Int ... l%20gb.htm. From experience, and looking back on three decades in the industry, I know that producing small numbers of motorcycles makes no financial sense whatsoever. And anything below the size of Triumph or Ducati today is too small. Therefore consider me a cynic, "a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist."
Whilst I would love to believe all the good news, I know it can't work out. To call all the many announcements "ambitious" is putting it mildly. Bloor sunk a 3-figure million sum in Triumph before he saw the first returns according to the Financial Times, and was cited as "I would not do it again". In his case he could raise that sum from his own pocket. Who is going to invest a similar amount in Norton and not see any of it back for over a decade, Bloor style?
And remember he did it in times when the motorcycle market was growing, not shrinking as it is today, and in a totally different (better) economic climate, starting with a range of motorcycles, with no statements before they hit the market in full production and approved.
Today's climate in the industry can be seen from the fact HD just sold (gave?) Claudio Castiglioni a debt-free motorcycle factory with the trademark and fully developed, desirable product in full production (MV Agusta) for all of 3 Euros (lees that 5 Dollars), with another 20 million Euros cash thrown in just to rid them of that liability. And even in this case I see the next cash crisis looming on the horizon- the production figures and potential market are imho too small to make ends meet.
Of course, Paul, you may use the quote. I stole it from someone else years ago. It is so true.
From my own experience in sinking a six figure sum (Australian dollars) into my Fullauto Technologies cylinder heads, where I draw no money from the business to live on, I can tell you that I will not even get my investment back, let alone make a profit for another maybe two years. That means about four years spending to get my money back. I have no premises, no employees and no overheads but still it will take this long. I can safely say that I didn't do it to get rich. I would like to be able to supply a few good quality Norton bits in the future and perhaps survive in my retirement but that is by no means assured.
Have you ever heard of MotoCzysz ? The spelling may be wrong but he burst on the scene a few years ago with his own race bike(s). He was independently wealthy (an architect I believe) and he was going to fund the whole deal himself. Last I saw he was looking for investment backing and I haven't heard anything about the project since. Does this tell you something? Going racing with anything on Sunday that doesn't sell bikes on Monday is financial suicide. If Norton won races with a 700 rotary, it doesn't follow that the boy racers will be breaking down the doors on Monday wanting to buy a parallel twin. I know where the guy's money went. In the doco at the first dyno session there were about ten guys standing around watching. Oh, who was paying for them to stand around watching?
I see.
From my own experience in sinking a six figure sum (Australian dollars) into my Fullauto Technologies cylinder heads, where I draw no money from the business to live on, I can tell you that I will not even get my investment back, let alone make a profit for another maybe two years. That means about four years spending to get my money back. I have no premises, no employees and no overheads but still it will take this long. I can safely say that I didn't do it to get rich. I would like to be able to supply a few good quality Norton bits in the future and perhaps survive in my retirement but that is by no means assured.
Have you ever heard of MotoCzysz ? The spelling may be wrong but he burst on the scene a few years ago with his own race bike(s). He was independently wealthy (an architect I believe) and he was going to fund the whole deal himself. Last I saw he was looking for investment backing and I haven't heard anything about the project since. Does this tell you something? Going racing with anything on Sunday that doesn't sell bikes on Monday is financial suicide. If Norton won races with a 700 rotary, it doesn't follow that the boy racers will be breaking down the doors on Monday wanting to buy a parallel twin. I know where the guy's money went. In the doco at the first dyno session there were about ten guys standing around watching. Oh, who was paying for them to stand around watching?
I see.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Yes Ms Peel in her prime with 5+lb lighter flywheel, small port head, 9:1 CR and 34 mm carb with 2 -1 hollow butt plated megaphone and fair amount of mass removed > would leap ahead of sports bikes having to back off d/t wheelies up to 90 mph. The 900's above could out accelerate when Peel hit 3rd gear but she could still match their top end in our opens up to almost 140. What I BRAG about though which is what NO ONE will understand but me and Patton is rear link allowed turn entry a gear higher than the corner cripples under skipping tire traction and keep on increasing power all the way through and out of turn in skipping jerking rear traction till upright enough for full hook up away. I could not have utilized the supreme handling hook up and stability if not for racer like power response. I had almost 6 months of hunting down hot rodders, most often runing up on them in my mere cruising ~120 mph. I'd pull up to sports rider groups and yell out
HEY Any hot shots here care to give me a run for it? Triumph Triples and Ducati and GRSX 1000's guys would perk up and we have a blast in some of the best twisted tights there is. Even BMW RS1200's which I have much awe in how fast they can take turns and then disappear around the next because I could not match power in the opens between the turns.
Peel lost her edge when I put on the real Combat 10CR head and dual Amals.
Peel had tach needle disappear for hand full of seconds on stuck dual Amal throttle in shed on almost freezing day, if 11K rpm is registered by peg stop then she went way over that, even once throttle slammed shut took like 2 sec for needle to stop bouncing so fast to be seen then another second to slowly stop bouncing off peg and a sec more to come down into red zone and slow to stop as expected. Took 30 sec for smoke out every seam to clear before I could see top was still on. A few seconds later she started and I ran her another 2000 miles but she was distorted enough could not make power over 5000 rpm. So wish I'd just held WOT and hit kill button but she started so fast I lost balance as kicker out ran my karate kick speed and lost grip on throttle. I grabbed throttle as tach passed red zone but she caught second wind or fuel puddle and suddenly rev'd up even harder to slam engine back on iso so hard it slapped by panic grip right back off throttle again - in dumb founded shock and sound that about took roof and sides off tin shed. Sounded like full orchestra playing while dropped thru rood of shed. I know what the weak spots are in Norton twins, crankshaft flex
is the main buggaboo.
Tease me, swear at me, sneer at me, call me a liar, that's what I got from the squids and vacationing racers on paired down bikes, bald tire edges and worn knee pucks, but they could not begin to keep up with Peel once 45' or more leaned. I got it so much with eye's lifting to heaven on seeing obsolete Norton asking to tag along till bored. So much so its became my new hobby to wipe the sneers off. Racers and matured pilots got off on it, local bad boys from the cities got pissed as shit, so I'd expect same here as part of the thrill to shatter concepts. The only ones I ran neck and neck in tights with were experts I had talked with prior to contests as these exceeded risks taken on race tracks.
New engine is almost done, its not configured for max out rpm and flow but for real life grunt on and off road. Animals and other hazard events prove I can not expect not to crash again, so pensive to even field the expense engine with rare Drouin hanging exposed to trauma. Peels past engine was plenty enough to embarass sports bikes to as fast as our size tires rated. So I've offered it to Ken to try out on lake bed but don't know if its up to the other boosted liter bikes that are built for land speed only. I've configure 920 to run good w/o boost too, so could enter in un boosted class to see if small ports and big carb pay off.
Its the power in turns I'm fascinated with not just sprints which are fun but rather relaxing compared to phase 3 to 5 handling. I get more shove through seat into rear patch in far leaned turns than pure upright. I've been on sports bikes but only Peel flashes me back to slalom water skiing by the pulling apart of wrist joints in turns. Will install air muscle hole shot fork tuck down to avoid wheelies.
Naked 750 Peel pulled good right up to 135 'indicated' on level and a few more mph on slight downhill opens. So I'd guess salt run might give low 120's like everyone else.
HEY Any hot shots here care to give me a run for it? Triumph Triples and Ducati and GRSX 1000's guys would perk up and we have a blast in some of the best twisted tights there is. Even BMW RS1200's which I have much awe in how fast they can take turns and then disappear around the next because I could not match power in the opens between the turns.
Peel lost her edge when I put on the real Combat 10CR head and dual Amals.
Peel had tach needle disappear for hand full of seconds on stuck dual Amal throttle in shed on almost freezing day, if 11K rpm is registered by peg stop then she went way over that, even once throttle slammed shut took like 2 sec for needle to stop bouncing so fast to be seen then another second to slowly stop bouncing off peg and a sec more to come down into red zone and slow to stop as expected. Took 30 sec for smoke out every seam to clear before I could see top was still on. A few seconds later she started and I ran her another 2000 miles but she was distorted enough could not make power over 5000 rpm. So wish I'd just held WOT and hit kill button but she started so fast I lost balance as kicker out ran my karate kick speed and lost grip on throttle. I grabbed throttle as tach passed red zone but she caught second wind or fuel puddle and suddenly rev'd up even harder to slam engine back on iso so hard it slapped by panic grip right back off throttle again - in dumb founded shock and sound that about took roof and sides off tin shed. Sounded like full orchestra playing while dropped thru rood of shed. I know what the weak spots are in Norton twins, crankshaft flex
is the main buggaboo.
Tease me, swear at me, sneer at me, call me a liar, that's what I got from the squids and vacationing racers on paired down bikes, bald tire edges and worn knee pucks, but they could not begin to keep up with Peel once 45' or more leaned. I got it so much with eye's lifting to heaven on seeing obsolete Norton asking to tag along till bored. So much so its became my new hobby to wipe the sneers off. Racers and matured pilots got off on it, local bad boys from the cities got pissed as shit, so I'd expect same here as part of the thrill to shatter concepts. The only ones I ran neck and neck in tights with were experts I had talked with prior to contests as these exceeded risks taken on race tracks.
New engine is almost done, its not configured for max out rpm and flow but for real life grunt on and off road. Animals and other hazard events prove I can not expect not to crash again, so pensive to even field the expense engine with rare Drouin hanging exposed to trauma. Peels past engine was plenty enough to embarass sports bikes to as fast as our size tires rated. So I've offered it to Ken to try out on lake bed but don't know if its up to the other boosted liter bikes that are built for land speed only. I've configure 920 to run good w/o boost too, so could enter in un boosted class to see if small ports and big carb pay off.
Its the power in turns I'm fascinated with not just sprints which are fun but rather relaxing compared to phase 3 to 5 handling. I get more shove through seat into rear patch in far leaned turns than pure upright. I've been on sports bikes but only Peel flashes me back to slalom water skiing by the pulling apart of wrist joints in turns. Will install air muscle hole shot fork tuck down to avoid wheelies.
Naked 750 Peel pulled good right up to 135 'indicated' on level and a few more mph on slight downhill opens. So I'd guess salt run might give low 120's like everyone else.
