Norton Commando Land Speed racer update

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that's a good point.

i agree that obsessive-compulsive types are attracted to this sort of thing. i can't speak for road racing, because that's a flexible endeavor that requires a suite of rider and mechanic skills to be successful. the interesting thing to me about LSR is the focus. there is only one goal-- top speed. nothing else matters. the bike doesn't have to idle, doesn't have to accelerate out of the turns, doesn't have to handle, doesn't have to be comfortable. all it needs to do is go fast in a straight line for a mile, and everything else can be sacrificed for that end.

so the build is really interesting, because you're doing something with no compromises, and tiny details matter immensely. just two inches of difference in exhaust pipe length either way means 4 mph to my bike above 120 mph. one size difference in jetting the mains means a five percent change in speed, depending on the relative air density at the moment of your run.

read what andy says about pointing his toes during the run to pick up speed. that's moronic, everywhere but in LSR, where it matters a great deal. even whether your pipes exit straight back or are turned out into the windstream can make a 5 mph difference. lifting your fat ass off the seat at 125 mph might give your 130 mph.

everything matters.
 
The only real problem I can see with LSR attempts is getting the gearing right. It can be extremely deceiving. I suppose that if you have access to the dyno curves for horsepower and torque verses revs, you might know when there is more go to be had. But seat of the pants might be quite difficult. With a road racer, it is easier because you know how long it usually takes you to get down certain parts of the circuit and if getting around the next corner has become more difficult. What I found with my commando is that when it was under-geared, I did not know it until I raised the gearing. The motor seems to want to accelerate at the same rate regardless of the gearing.
 
In practice, it's not that difficult. Once the bike is sorted, and you've made a run or two, got the jetting close to right, and are comfortable running it up through the gears, it's pretty much a case of trial and error. Presumably you know by now roughly where the horsepower peak is, as well as a safe red line somewhere above that. If the bike will easily run up past the horsepower peak, you just gear a little taller, and see if the time is any better. You keep doing that until the top speed drops. The gearing choice before that is as good as it gets. Same sort of procedure if it won't pull a high enough rpm. You just keep lowering the overall gearing until speed peaks. It will probably take more than one race meet to sort it out, but after that, you will know the right gearing within a tooth or two. On any given day, the you might run a little more or a little less gearing, depending on air density, wind conditions (head or tail winds), etc., but that's in the same category as changing jetting to suit the conditions. As you make improvements in streamlining or engine performance, you'll hopefully be running progressively taller gearing for higher speeds. After the first couple of meets, it's a very incremental process, with a series of small speed increases, not some huge jump (unless you add nitrous, or a supercharger, or a full fairing, etc.).

That sounds like the process that Andy and Herb went through, and plan to continue to do. If they can keep at it, I'm sure they have the potential with their bike to be the next class record holder.

Setting the bike up on a dyno prior to the first meet will definitely shorten the learning curve, but it's still going to be a trial and error process to find the best setup. But hey, that's where the fun is :D

Using a data logger to get a good plot of rpm through the gears, as well as air fuel ratio, can be a real time saver. We had that for the first time at our last Bonneville meet (2014) and it is really helpful.

The first time my racing buddy and I went to Bonneville with my 750 Norton road race bike, we did three sets of two-way runs, and went home with records in three classes. That was a fairy tale sort of experience, and definitely not typical. The salt was the best I've ever seen it, just like concrete. The weather was perfect. We made no practice runs, nothing except the record runs, nothing broke, and we made no tuning or gearing changes to the bike. On the other hand, I'd been road racing the bike for years, so it was pretty well developed, and I had plenty of tuning and gearing data from long tracks like Daytona, so it wasn't that hard to figure out the right setup.

We never had that much good fortune again. :cry: Our subsequent efforts at Bonneville and El Mirage were great fun, with lots of good stories to tell, but the results weren't so hot. There's always next year!

Ken
 
With my motor, I don't know where the horsepower peak is, it seems to go right through the top of the usable rev range . I always try to change up before it reaches 7000 RPM, but I often see 7,500 RPM on changes. What I have found with the heavy long-stroke crank is that it behaves entirely differently from a short-stroke light crank. If you gear it down to get more acceleration, with the light crank you get more, with the heavy crank it does not accelerate any faster when you lower the gearing. In fact it accelerates slower. Fastest acceleration seems to be when you keep the revs above 6000 RPM and race-change with the close ratio box, using high overall gearing.
In a land speed record attempt this effect might be irrelevant, once you have your overall gearing correct. I think if I tried it with my motor, I would be pee-ing myself with anxiety.
 
lcrken said:
We never had that much good fortune again. :cry: Our subsequent efforts at Bonneville and El Mirage were great fun, with lots of good stories to tell, but the results weren't so hot. There's always next year!

Ken

Thanks for sharing your experiences Ken. Sometimes the best lessons are where you don't have the success. Would you mind expounding on what went right and what went wrong. I know you could probably write a book but maybe a synopsis.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
I was not going to wait around for someone else to post this.

Norton Commando Land Speed racer update

This guy (Roland Free) noticed that his leathers were flapping in the windstream so he stripped them off and strapped on his brass balls. Poured some Nitro into the tank (I think) and blasted up to new 150mph record in the late 1940s. Note that the bike (Vincent Black lightning) is little more than a motor with two wheels with a tank on top.

The poor soul who tried to copy him crashed and was nearly skinned alive on the salt. Rules have changed since then.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
lcrken said:
We never had that much good fortune again. :cry: Our subsequent efforts at Bonneville and El Mirage were great fun, with lots of good stories to tell, but the results weren't so hot. There's always next year!

Ken

Thanks for sharing your experiences Ken. Sometimes the best lessons are where you don't have the success. Would you mind expounding on what went right and what went wrong. I know you could probably write a book but maybe a synopsis.

Where to start? Trying not to hijack this thread too much, I'll keep it brief. After our dream runs in 2001 with the 750 featherbed bike, we went back to Bonneville in 2006 with our 920 streamliner, and again in 2007 and 2009. These are the principle issues we had, pretty much in chronological order.

1. Chute release problems. At first the release mechanicals didn't work. After fixing that, we had a serious problem with inadvertent chute release. Mercury switches were sloshing the mercury around and tripping the release. We had to disconnect the system after getting through tech so we could at least get some runs. Finally got a system to work with expensive solid state angle sensor.
2. Problems with the outrigger wheels system design. Never did get it to work properly, and did most runs with wheels out.
3. Pingel electronic solenoid shifter worked fine at slow speeds and not at all at high speeds. It has a fixed actuation duration, and it's not enough for a Norton gearbox at speed. Set a record at a really low speed by starting in second gear and revving the snot out of it through the speed trap. Switched to foot shifter operating push-pull cable, which worked fine.
4. Electronic tachs were erratic. Too long a length of wire from tach to pickup point on coil, we think, but could have been electromagnetic interference from the EI too.
5. Difficult learning curve on rider technique to get it going from the start in a straight line. Ran off the course a couple times and crashed once.
6. Cart we built to transport the liner around on the salt broke twice in one meet and lost a lot of time finding a local welder to repair. Beefed it up when we got home.
7. Lucas electronic ignition died. That was the last time we ran the liner. In all the other meets the engine had been flawless, but once we got all the other mechanical issues sorted, the EI failed. Unfortunately, it died slowly, so we spent a couple of days thinking it was a jetting problem, and by the time we diagnosed it correctly, we were out of time. Turns out it was likely my fault for mounting the EI box solidly to the frame. The instructions said to mount it with rubber isolators.

After all that, I threw in the towel. It was just too much effort and expense, and needed too many people on the team. In addition, with the safety rule changes in the cockpit, I (being a feeble old geezer) could no longer exit in the 15 seconds required to be demonstrated at tech. That meant Eric would have to be the only pilot. So I pulled the plug on it, and went back to a conventional bike. Eric refit it with a Moto-Guzzi engine, added a sidecar, and we ran it a couple of times that way, setting a couple of records in the sidecar streamliner classes. A picture of it here

motoguzzi-sidecar-streamliner-t14477.html

In addition to the streamliner, we took the featherbed 750 along in 2006, and I managed to ride it to a class record.

Our last trip to the salt was 2014, when I ran the featherbed with the 920 engine on nitrous, and Eric scared himself to death with an evil handling Moto-Guzzi sidecar he'd put together. Paul (Son of Sir Edward) was there for the first time with his father's 500 Norton, and Jim Comstock (comnoz) was there helping both of us. Aside from getting flooded and breaking my engine, we had a great time.

More info on the nittous 920 and the 2014 meet here

norton-ready-for-bonneville-speed-trials-t20141-30.html

Ken
 
lcrken said:
That sounds like the process that Alan and Herb went through, and plan to continue to do. If they can keep at it, I'm sure they have the potential with their bike to be the next class record holder.

It's Andy, not Alan.
 
Eldo said:
lcrken said:
That sounds like the process that Alan and Herb went through, and plan to continue to do. If they can keep at it, I'm sure they have the potential with their bike to be the next class record holder.

It's Andy, not Alan.

Sorry about that Andy. I took the correct name off the timing slip, but then had another senior moment when I wrote the post. I've edited the post to correct it.

Ken
 
lcrken said:
Eldo said:
lcrken said:
That sounds like the process that Alan and Herb went through, and plan to continue to do. If they can keep at it, I'm sure they have the potential with their bike to be the next class record holder.

It's Andy, not Alan.

Sorry about that Andy. I took the correct name off the timing slip, but then had another senior moment when I wrote the post. I've edited the post to correct it.

Ken

Ha ha, No problem.
 
Fast Eddie said:
....If you haven't already, get a copy of a book called "Johnathon Livingstone Seagull" it won't help you improve, but I think you'll relate to and enjoy it... and it will kinda justify the obsessive behaviour a bit...!
Thank you Fast Eddie for your excellent reading suggestion.
Bill
 
Eldo,

Time to discuss the elephant in the room here...

What's your position on air drag and very long bushy beards...?

Johnathon had this kinda thing covered...
 
I would have thought that electronics would have made the bike more reliable than the older mechanical systems. - Might be lesson for us there ?
 
Fast Eddie said:
Eldo,

Time to discuss the elephant in the room here...

What's your position on air drag and very long bushy beards...?

Johnathon had this kinda thing covered...

Ha ha, I actually wear a lycra neck "sock" to keep my beard in check!
 
Eldo said:
Fast Eddie said:
Eldo,

Time to discuss the elephant in the room here...

What's your position on air drag and very long bushy beards...?

Johnathon had this kinda thing covered...

Ha ha, I actually wear a lycra neck "sock" to keep my beard in check!

Dam!

Thought I'd found you another 3mph there...!
 
Hey Andy congratulations! Just read through the entire tread. What a great success story!
You did it right, little steps with positive results every time.
I am with you on being the rider. A ton of time and effort goes into building a LSR bike and the reward is being the one that gets to hold on feel the power of the bike going through the gears and pulling hard to the final marker.
Your a big guy with a big heart, keep it pumping, you will get the record.
Plan on coming out to the Bonneville Speed Trails in 2018, both Ken and I will be there.

How cool to see you had successful runs and it stayed together! Here's to Big guys making Big dreams come true!

Congratulations!!!!
 
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