Norton at the 2015 IOM TT races

grandpaul said:

As long as depositors are still waiting for bikes, and owners are still waiting WAY too long to get their bikes back from the shop, the beatings will continue.

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Is this still going on though.
Or is this very much old out-of-date news. ?

Wasn't it said, a year or 2 back now even, that moving some of the machining and fabrication services in-house had solved all the production delays.
Thats why the 961 was available for sale in the USA and other parts of the world....

Still the case.

Some countries have only just received their shipment(s) of bikes because approval to import has only just been given,
and they have (finally) jumped all the bureaucratic hurdles, hoops and red tape.
Australia, for example.

This is hardly Mr Garners fault, if they had bikes ready and waiting to ship....

Several folks have apparently bought them in the UK and privately imported them.
And had several years use out of them by now....

After reading this thread I've changed my opinion on this topic too. Initially it seemed pointless to me as it appeared to be totally unrelated to the 961 that the new Norton company is finally getting to market. I still think it was horrible management and real shady business to take a deposit from someone and then not deliver the bike to them, add in rotten communication / customer service etc... However it seems to be getting better for the new 961 and their owners. So, if you're gonna go racing you gotta be able to compete and using other engines to start with is loads cheaper than building the powerplant in house. Nobody seems to cry foul when brembo brakes are used for example. You only have to look at the kenny roberts proton effort to see how expensive it can be. So I now think that just showing up and fielding a couple of bikes at the races is a good thing and I say what the hell -- Go for it !!

cjandme said:

I still think it was horrible management and real shady business to take a deposit from someone and then not deliver the bike to them, add in rotten communication / customer service etc...

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When Jaguar announced the XK220 (was it ?), they reportedly took 3 times the inital deposits of cars that they planned to build.
And quite a hefty deposit it was too - £50,000 each - it was an expensive supercar car.
They (eventually) refunded more than 2/3 of the deposits....

And many other car makers have done similar too when announcing new models, so its not exactly unknown in the auto world.
Seems many potential owners want to get their foot in the door, ahead of the pack.

I've noticed the local building construction co's are taking deposits for off-the-plan apartments, that are not yet even a hole in the ground.
If the initial sales are slow, it can take a long while before they start building anything. ?? So the deposits are crucial to getting construction started.
Same business plan ?

Taking a "standing back" overview of all this suggests to me that whenever someone wants to do something, whether it's racing motorcycles, building motorcycles or building houses, they come up with a plan of action. This plan of action is clearly prepared to provide some advantage to the originator. They are, after all planning the activity to make money. Others may prepare a plan to do all sorts of other things of course. I think it's fair to say that Mr Garner is in business to make money, he is not running for instance a philanthropic organistion.

Inevitably some people will not agree with this plan of action, for all sorts of reasons, some legitimate some less so.

It seems to me that the well documented failings of the New Norton have been addressed and current criticisms strike me as being something like flogging a dead (iron!) horse.
The internet is a wonderful thing, however instant and unedited communication does provide the opportunity for unchecked Dead Horse Flogging.

Without winning the lottery, I could never afford a New Norton, but I do think that Stuart Garner should be applauded for doing what he has done. Both his production efforts and his racing efforts. At least HE is doing something, and at the end of the day I suppose that it's better to be criticised for doing something rather than doing nothing.

I still say all the best to them,
cheers
wakeup

wakeup said:

I think it's fair to say that Mr Garner is in business to make money, he is not running for instance a philanthropic organistion.

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I say all the best to them too.
But some might question your statement, or any sign that it is indeed making money for anyone anywhere.
Mr Garner stated early on he was out to revive the Norton name - and Mr Dreer was out to shed this role.

And there is always that famous quip...
Q. How do you make a small fortune from manufacturing motorcycles.
A. Invest a large fortune in it.

So, buying castles also figures in to a good business model, I suppose.

Yeef.

Presumably gp is talking about Donington Hall, my understanding is that the property that Garner bought came with the Hall. It's not a Castle. Garner bought the place because it had facilities that suited his (and New Nortons) needs, and a big old house.
Typically a Castle has a big ditch surrounding it for filling with water, a drawbridge, a big thick gate, few if any exterior windows, big towers. All this to make access to undesirables difficult. Looking at pictures of the Hall, it doesn't seem to have any of the above, which leads me to think that it has never been thought of as a Castle.

One thing that Castles have which Donington Hall probably doesn't is an area set aside for flogging recalcitrants, or dead horses.

Donington Hall is within a parish called Castle Donington, there is indeed a village called Castle Donington, which suggests that there may have been a Castle somewhere close at some stage. There is a village nearby called Kings Newton, maybe they have a King?

cheers
wakeup

A Motorcycle Co with ASSETS ?? !!
Must be in it for the long haul.

Didn't Mr Bloor make his dough in real estate development.
Might be a lesson in there somewhere. ?
Perhaps we could compare with Mr Dreers strategy. ...

P.S. We note that Donington Hall is listed as a Grade 2 building, the motorcycle business is in the commercial part out the back.
Did I see that some sort of motorcycle business training course(s) have been set up in the Hall itself.

someone seems to have some sort of agenda flogging this particular horse. ??

Rohan said:

Didn't Mr Bloor make his dough in real estate development.
....Like Dunstall? Or did Dunstall go on to Real Estate Development?

Perhaps we could compare with Mr Dreers strategy. ...
....What was Dreers strategy?

P.S. We note that Donington Hall is listed as a Grade 2 building, the motorcycle business is in the commercial part out the back.
Did I see that some sort of motorcycle business training course(s) have been set up in the Hall itself.
....That's pretty much how I understood it

someone seems to have some sort of agenda flogging this particular horse. ??

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.... No dead horse flogging from me. Just speaking as someone who loves motorbikes, Nortons, and Engineering in general.
Also someone who gets fed up with people who snipe at others who are having a go. It's sometimes very easy to be negative. Yes I realise that there is a difference between unquestioning support (aka cheerleading) and positive constructive criticism. I would like to think that I fit in the latter category.
Yes I agree about the "how to make a small fortune from motorcycle manufacture, start with a big one" jest.
cheers
wakeup

wakeup said:

....What was Dreers strategy?

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I don't know. !
Does it bear a comparison ?
He didn't get it into production, if that tells us anything.

wakeup said:

.... No dead horse flogging from me.

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That wasn't aimed at you at all, more at a comment further back in this thread.

Personally, I think its marvellous that the Norton name has been revived. And are back into TT racing, as was always Nortons heritage and strength.
How it has been done is rather roundabout in the way of a business plan, but if it works, who are we to comment ?

Absolutely agree Rohan.
cheers
wakeup

Ok back to Norton racing at the TT. Heres a nice vid to calm everything down. Norton machine @ 0:26-0:45. Everything kicks off in 3 days
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R_2Ar8epug&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Rohan said:

Didn't Mr Bloor make his dough in real estate development.
Might be a lesson in there somewhere. ?

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ABSOLUTELY!

Lesson:

FIRST, make a bunch of money.

SECOND, open motorcycle company, make, and sell bikes.

Done, and done.

Oh, yes, when bikes have been delivered to ALL depositors, THEN go racing...

EVERY PENNY NOT SPENT on producing and delivering bikes to long-suffering depositors, is WRONG.

Bloor poured a lot of money into Triumph for a lot of years, but even when it became profitable I don't think there was anything spent on racing. For acceleration and top speed, the fastest bike they have produced to date is the 2002-2006 Daytona 955i. It would have been a good candidate for race support as it was above the top machines from Ducati, Aprilia Honda, and Kawasaki for both horsepower and horsepower to weight when it came out and was about on par with the Yamaha R 1 and just slightly behind the GSXR 1000. In acceleration tests it beat all five of the major top litre bikes in zero to sixty, all but the GSXR in zero to 120 MPH(9.1 seconds) and in the 1/4 mile. The Suzuki was only about half a wheel quicker.
In spite of the fact that Bloor was employing something like 1600 workers and was profitably building many thousands of machines at this point, he did not feel he had the necessary funds available to launch a successful race campaign against the Japanese. He was content to build one hell of a great road bike instead. I read an 03 test of the Daytona 955i were it was milliseconds behind the GSXR and others on a track test even though, on this particular test it outdid all of the other bikes in acceleration. Handling was not quite as quick as the others as the Daytona has suspension which gives a/comfortable ride on real roads, not ideal for a perfect track.
At the end of the test all five bikes had to be ridden through the mountains for 200 miles to home base. All five of the testers dove for the Triumph keys at once. That tells you quite a lot.

Now they have built the 675 and it comes out tops in nearly every category. Once this bike had been under production for some time and was clearly a durable and competitive machine, the factory finally spent some money to partially fund a
Racing team. Because the design of the bike is so good, it has excelled in racing.

Maybe Stuart Garner needs to look more closely at the success of Hinckley Triumph, who somehow managed to build good fast, useable and reliable bikes right from day one. The main complaint about their early bikes is that they were a bit on the heavy side. They have rectified that and then some.

Glen

grandpaul said:

EVERY PENNY NOT SPENT on producing and delivering bikes to long-suffering depositors, is WRONG.

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Again, the money for racing has come from a separate source.
And is stipulated its ONLY for racing.

Besides, where is this info that customers are still waiting for bikes ?
Aprroval for sale in some countries was a large holdup, there are now bikes sitting in showrooms (?).

It might also be worth commenting that Nortons Race Shop was largely funded from outside for racing too.
(Which Bert Hopwood largely ignored in his book ?).
Shell, Dunlop, Lodge, Amal, Smiths, Lucas etc all payed 'bonus money' for race wins,
and this funded a large part of Nortons race program.
This was also how a large number of privateers could afford racing.
And why folks could be disqualified from a race if even the sparl plug or tires etc were the wrong make as had been listed on the entry form.

worntorn said:

Bloor poured a lot of money into Triumph for a lot of years,
but even when it became profitable I don't think there was anything spent on racing.

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There is a Triumph 675 racing in some class ? of the World Superbikes Series WSBK.
It might be a private effort (?), but has given a good account of itself.

I've seen a (hotrodded) 955 dynoed somewhere, it put out a serious amount of mumbo.
Whether it has the chassis/suspension to compete I don't know though.
Thats where Nortons are getting chassis development miles in the TT.
Given that those Ohlins forks are electrically adjustable these days, that would take some experimenting with...

The Triumph 675 won the Supersport race at the TT last year with Gary Johnson on board for Smiths racing which is an official factory supported team.
Interestingly Michael Dunlop won the Supersport 2 race as a privateer on his own Honda CBR 600 at the same event.
You dont need to own a motorcycle brand to compete at the TT all you need is a bike.

Not to forget that a Daytona 675 won the 2014 Daytona 200 mile race. The first Triumph win since Gary Nixon in 1967