No more FullAuto heads?

oldmikew said:

Thruxton heads were sand cast presumably on an as necessary basis... surely no such foundry using the technology you mention would be interested in such small production runs except at mega high prices.. and you still have to find a pattern maker.

Click to expand...

Do you mean the Tri Thruxton, produced up to 2016?
I take for granted that whoever buys FA Technogy's assets also acquires the patterns they used and the exact production methodology. As far as specialist foundries go, there are numerous, notably in the US, UK, France and Germany.
Here is one in CT, US:
http://www.sycastinc.com/case-study--hybrid-molding.html
No idea of pricing.

-Knut

nortonspeed said:

Ken a quick search on the net: fullauto heads are still offered by Andover Norton and Holland Norton Works.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I have to plead guilty to provincialism. I didn't think to check beyond the USA sources.

mdt-son said:

Do you mean the Tri Thruxton, produced up to 2016?
I take for granted that whoever buys FA Technogy's assets also acquires the patterns they used and the exact production methodology. As far as specialist foundries go, there are numerous, notably in the US, UK, France and Germany.
Here is one in CT, US:
http://www.sycastinc.com/case-study--hybrid-molding.html
No idea of pricing.

-Knut

Click to expand...

I meant the Veloctte Thruxton..

oldmikew said:

I meant the Veloctte Thruxton..

Click to expand...

OK. Nice casting and a very good design, but the 4 internal cavities of the Norton head and twice the number of duct cores makes the Norton head a far more complex casting.

-Knut

Maybe it's my mood today sorry, but....

Discussion of available foundries to cast low volume complex cylinder heads re runs a previous thread.

Discussion of bracket manufacturing has little relevance here, and yes....somewhat lacks the wow factor of a cylinder head!

It must be the economies of scale. This company produces a complete replacement aircraft cylinder that includes a cast aluminum head, steel barrel, piston, rings, valves, springs, etc., for $1300. It has to go through the rather rigorous FAA approval process as well. The head casting doesn't look as complicated as a Norton head but whoever is doing the casting is doing a pretty nice job. The cylinder in the brochure is straight valves but the ones on my engine are angle.

The low demand for Norton cylinder heads will keep the costs way up in comparison but there must be someone in the 'States who can take over the job.

www.superiorairparts.com/files/7713/8790/4628/SAP0078_Millenium_Cylinders_Brochure.pdf

SteveA said:

Discussion of available foundries to cast low volume complex cylinder heads re runs a previous thread.

Click to expand...

Ahh ... yes. The emphasize was on denial of the allegation there are no foundries offering limited run of complex automotive castings.

SteveA said:

Discussion of bracket manufacturing has little relevance here, and yes....somewhat lacks the wow factor of a cylinder head!

Click to expand...

True. The common denominator is not the bracket but rather marketing.

-Knut

According to my wife I know everything. So I like to visit here to remind myself that I don't.

(just for clarification, now I'm joking)

mdt-son said:

OK. Nice casting and a very good design, but the 4 internal cavities of the Norton head and twice the number of duct cores makes the Norton head a far more complex casting.

-Knut

Click to expand...

what about an all new head where appearances to the original was irrelevant? but ideally was mostly a bolt on replacement

84ok said:

what about an all new head where appearances to the original was irrelevant? but ideally was mostly a bolt on replacement

Click to expand...

The FA head is a sub-optimisation of the OEM head. If you really would want to optimize the head, where do you end? And which price tag would you end up with? In the end, you'd have to redesign the entire powertrain. By then you'd be better off buying a 961 or a new Triumph.

If money was of no concern, I would have developed a modern interpretation of the Cosworth Norton engine with a crossover gear box and a crankshaft similar to the 961.

-Knut

wasn't without issues tho
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-cast-cylinder-assemblies-part-numbers-series

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2009L03443

https://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-eases-impact-superior-cylinder-ad

JimNH said:

It must be the economies of scale. This company produces a complete replacement aircraft cylinder that includes a cast aluminum head, steel barrel, piston, rings, valves, springs, etc., for $1300. It has to go through the rather rigorous FAA approval process as well. The head casting doesn't look as complicated as a Norton head but whoever is doing the casting is doing a pretty nice job. The cylinder in the brochure is straight valves but the ones on my engine are angle.

The low demand for Norton cylinder heads will keep the costs way up in comparison but there must be someone in the 'States who can take over the job.

www.superiorairparts.com/files/7713/8790/4628/SAP0078_Millenium_Cylinders_Brochure.pdf

Click to expand...

mdt-son said:

The FA head is a sub-optimisation of the OEM head. If you really would want to optimize the head, where do you end? And which price tag would you end up with? In the end, you'd have to redesign the entire powertrain. By then you'd be better off buying a 961 or a new Triumph.

If money was of no concern, I would have developed a modern interpretation of the Cosworth Norton engine with a crossover gear box and a crankshaft similar to the 961.

-Knut

Click to expand...

Knut, I think you need to spend some time reading the 961 Forum.

84ok said:

what about an all new head where appearances to the original was irrelevant? but ideally was mostly a bolt on replacement

Click to expand...

You would thereby kill off part of your performance market, which is classic and vintage racing, where original external appearance and dimension are important....

And equally part of your restoration market where people build show bikes scored in competition on 'originality'

Now instead of batches of 25 I suggest you might be talking batches of 5!

worntorn said:

Knut, I think you need to spend some time reading the 961 Forum.

Click to expand...

Why? Any particular thread? I don't own a 961 and don't want one either, so for me reading the 961 Forum is a vaste of time (I think).

-Knut

Not a lot of reliability there.
A great many issues and not many miles travelled for most.


Glen

jseng
Fair comment and no doubt many variants of the head could have been offered but for me the outgoing FA was perfect to answer your question, and a new stock head I believe, would not be any cheaper than an FA if made in the UK, and while the other concepts sound tempting with alot of scope for development, the main interest would come from tuners and racers I believe.
With the FA, I could do a little bit of home brewed hot rodding at little extra cost, a few hours with my Proxxon, carbide burrs and Nuway cutters.
Then fit all the nice bits to it and get everything in spec, very satisfying but even better riding the results which is where it counts.
I used your spring height info by the way, many thanks for posting that, they ended up similar to my RH4 which was trouble free in that respect.
Add to that a better looking, leak free head, 1.75lb lighter than before that works well so far and sounds better too.
Hums along between 4-5000 on recent unavoidable motorway journeys with that cool baritone rumble at lower revs.
There is a vast difference between this and what you are doing however but I,m happy with my current engine setup and don,t contemplate any further mods, just fine tuning carbs, velo stacks and K&N.
This won,t stop me following your developments with interest and my next set of cam followers won,t be from Andover if they let go. A jseng J380 equivalent?

84ok said:

the cheapest available suitable for normal street use, for a start

Click to expand...

Once the molds are set up - any of the different configurations should cost the same - so might as well have the FA ports with thicker port walls and reangled stock size valves. But none of it matters if no one steps up to make new heads available again. Ken has had enough - who's next?

jseng1 said:

Ken has had enough - who's next?

Click to expand...

Forming a Limited Liability Company (LLC) with 30-50 partners is a possibility. With a business plan and a capital investment of 2000-3000 $ each, it should be possible to re-start manufacture.
I have no idea how such a body could be run and managed. In the end there has to be a skilled individual capable of running the LLC part-time or as part of his/her other business.

-Knut

84ok said:

wasn't without issues tho
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...-cast-cylinder-assemblies-part-numbers-series

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2009L03443

https://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-eases-impact-superior-cylinder-ad

Click to expand...

Note the AD note, or Airworthiness Directive is 11 years old and addressed a small batch of cylinders that could have been installed on a range of engines. This is NOT unheard of and has effected OEM as well as aftermarket cylinders. In this case the new Superior cylinders have enjoyed a very good reputation. This particular problem, which I'm familiar with, resulted due to a missed step in QC where a heat treat process of the completed assemblies (aircraft cylinder heads are screwed and shrunk on the steel barrels) was omitted. Bad news!

The point was and is, that foundries exist that can cast a quality aluminum head for a reasonable price, at least in some quantity. Since a Norton head is bolted onto the barrel the omitted step would never have been needed.

Aircraft cylinders are under continual stress. Normal cruise power generally 75% power. Unless racing we don't run our engines at 3/4 of the maximum power available for hours on end.

Again, the point was that foundries exist!

End the speculation, buy all of my tooling , machining programs, and intellectual property. Whilst not officially on the market, I'm dealing with various would be buyers at the moment, so, when I sort out who's serious and who's not, it will be advertised widely for sale. All the hard work is done. Not for the faint of heart, but a good solid business.