New use for a Kibblewhite Performance valve spring (2013)

comnoz

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Getting ready for my upcoming 4-5000 mile road trip and thought I would play with reducing vibration on the road. The iso rubbers were replace a couple years ago but with heavy 880 pistons and steel rods the bike has never been as smooth as it was originally. Now after a couple years the front mount was sacked out till the secondary rubbers were in full contact at rest.

I have played around with the spring on the headsteady but never found it to do much good. Maybe a little improvement if it was tightened as tight as it would go but then it would just break the stud or mounting bracket in a few hundred miles. So I tried something a little different.

A couple brackets and a little welding and a Kibblewhite valve spring. It supports the motor enough that when the front iso bolt is removed the holes stay lined up.
I was shocked at the difference. The mirrors are clear and no tingling hands after a couple hours. I guess I will find out if it lasts over the next three weeks. Jim

thespring001_zpsbcab6e76.jpg


thespring003_zps3e2f5d60.jpg
 
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Neato engine suspension Jim. I've one more Peel frame and cage welding to go so will put a shelf on like you in case the Drouin and heavy Maney block over whelm the isolastics. May try air bladder or air muscle to fine tune isolation. I've never heard of large cushions collapsing to bare on the back up cushions before so will have to chew on how that could happen in your case. I regularly over loaded Peel with feed bags to cases of beer to camping for two cargo and of course the on and off road impacts but cushions still as good as new even after bevealing half their rim area away. I've some spinal neck breaking injuries and rather sensitive to vibes in hands but was pleased both modified Peel and bone stock Trixie both let me trance out and not want to get off after all day rides but keep the comfortable one-ness with Cdo going and going. Two years ago return from LOP on Trixie did not want the sunlight to go down or the twisty Ozarks to finish. Peel on Ohio trip was even better and lost sense of any difference between me and Peel - just thinking which way to go while laying on big tank bag didn't even have to hold my head up, just eyes balls and grin in the wind...

Would like a review of how you compressed spring to get it in and not get hurt.
 

lcrken

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Interesting experiment, Jim. I've had the same problems with spring top mount breakage on my MKIII, and now run it looser. Let us know how it works out after the next long trip.

Ken
 
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Where ya goin' ? We could have spotters positioned along the roadway looking for a tired wobbly motorcyclist and an ambulance at the finish line for back - pain issues. Or sleep cot.
 

DogT

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I've always thought that head steady spring was too weak.
 
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I'm sorry, but I feel this is a solution to an inherent flaw of design.

Simply that the rod link type headsteady offers no vertical support. Yes, some have the MKIII spring incorporated, but this offers no dampening and will allow the motor to rely on the front and rear iso's to do the work and wear out prematurely. The front and rear Iso's are destined to take the brunt of supporting the motor. Front and rear Iso's will settle off center literally from the onset of this setup.

I feel, and has been my experience, that the stock box unit is superior over this rod link concept. I have the PR isolastic head steady now. It is the best system I have used.

So, yes, this Kibblewhite entry will help but is simply supplementing the MKIII spring up top, if applied, and sparing the front and rear isolastic from early failure.

I would say that if you choose or are now using the rod link system, you better get your frame modded.
 
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Yes, you can keep a close eye on the stock heady rubber donuts, replacing them as they fracture and age,
however most Commando owners do not pay attention to this.

When the rubbers fracture they allow the motor to move laterally, side to side.

This movement is disconcerting, vague feeling, but is easily tolerated because it slowly worsens.

A rod linkage head steady allows the motor to move up and down and fore and aft, but forbids side to side.

I switched to a Dave Taylor rod linkage some years back and the difference in handling was astounding.

The bike immediately felt like it was on rails by comparison, I guess one does not realize how good of an upgrade a rod linkage is until they try it. I have since sold the Dave Taylor and installed Jim's rod head steady simply because the components are more robust than the Taylor's.


The larger donuts over time tend to harden and compress and thus shrink in diameter, we all can see the oblong shape when they are removed also as they compress more from the top down weight than the side to side movement. The more they compress, the more likely the smaller donuts make cradle contact.

I like Jim's idea as it clearly supports the motor stronger as it pushes up versus the Mark3 spring trying to hold the motor up from above.

Lets see, I have Jim's rod head steady and his hydraulic clutch which I really really like.

Now he is tempting me again with his bottom of crankcase breather, hydraulic cam chain tensioner,
and now THIS idea.
 

comnoz

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pete.v said:
I'm sorry, but I feel this is a solution to an inherent flaw of design.

Simply that the rod link type headsteady offers no vertical support. Yes, some have the MKIII spring incorporated, but this offers no dampening and will allow the motor to rely on the front and rear iso's to do the work and wear out prematurely. The front and rear Iso's are destined to take the brunt of supporting the motor. Front and rear Iso's will settle off center literally from the onset of this setup.

I feel, and has been my experience, that the stock box unit is superior over this rod link concept. I have the PR isolastic head steady now. It is the best system I have used.

So, yes, this Kibblewhite entry will help but is simply supplementing the MKIII spring up top, if applied, and sparing the front and rear isolastic from early failure.

I would say that if you choose or are now using the rod link system, you better get your frame modded.

I have a third isolastic on my other 850. The iso rubbers sacked out just as fast on it, and now the top isolastic hits against the end of its travel and makes grinding rattling noises on every dip in the road. If someone wants a nice stainless third iso for the top of the head I would sell it real cheap. Jim

PS /The original rubber mounts don't even last very long trying to hold up a muffler. I don't see how they could be expected to add any vertical support to the engine.
 

DogT

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I like the idea of a rod head steady and the Kibblewhite spring. I never cared for the rubber head steady of any type. I'm using a home made link head steady, and may look into the spring idea.

As a side note, I put new isolastics on my bike in 2010, with the old 69 head steady, and took the front isos apart to install the Hemmings adjuster a year later. The donuts were already compressed to one side. That's why I installed the head spring, but I found it unsatisfactory to support the weight of the engine especially with the heim joint head steady. The PR head steady or ludwigs design may be satisfactory, but I think he also uses a spring.

I like the idea of supporting the isos to their center.

Dave
 

comnoz

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I was just thinking of the head steadies I have had on my EFI bike.

1. the original -it cracked

2. original replacement - it cracked and one of the side plates cracked.

3. an Isolastic type - I don't remember who made it but it transmitted way too much vibration to the frame for my liking. It had pretty firm rubber donuts in it.

4. Another isolastic type that I built with no rubber donuts. I used Teflon washers for side to side control. The washers were short lived and would pound out in a few hundred miles.

5. The Dave Taylor headsteady, it actually worked pretty well, my only complaint was wear in the joints after long rides in the rain. The road grit and water got into the joints and made them loose and squeaky.
I eventually took it off and installed it on my racebike and it broke when I crashed at Gratten.

6.That is when I made my own headsteady with sealed tie rod ends. Close to 50,000 miles now and it is as tight as the day I installed it. Jim
 

Time Warp

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Can I ask what that bracket is between the Kibblewhite spring and isolastic mount is,something only found on MkIII's ?
 
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comnoz

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Time Warp said:
Can I ask what that bracket is between the Kibblewhite spring and isolastic mount is,something only found on MkIII's ?

I drew it up and whittled it out of a piece of steel on the CNC. It has a nub in the center to hold the spring in place. Jim
 

Time Warp

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I'm looking at the one above that attaching to the frame (r/h side) and looks to have a 3/8 nut on the l/h side back to the engine case.
Actually one end looks like a ball joint,some form of panhard bar. ?
 
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The infamous dual studded rubber mount is known for the developer, Lords, a supplier of isolation mounts to major manufacturers so is properly or at least originally called a "Lord's Mount". I waist mine nowadays for the better isolation which is more important to me than racing around on an un-tamed Cdo, no thank you. Harley catalogs have a bit more robust version. Waists lasts for 10,000+ miles and easy to switch out now and then. I've run w/o heady and it can kill ya with the sudden unexpected weave/flog just crossing a paint line! Waisted handles same security as the whole mounts though so nothing to loose but another layer of engine removal and also some wind and road wiggly's too. Not like a good radius rod set up which alas is not Norton part numbered for plain Trixie. Looks like some experimenters could jam various rubber balls or objects in between cross tube and cases to see if helps, hurts or nothing at all.

Lord's used to make rod end eyes rubber cushioned isolators called 'Elastoimetric' rod ends but the last of those got snatched up by two rump rod linkers. In looking at air bladders I came across one that was identical in concept to Cdo's but had an inner tube between the outer and inner cylinders with a air fill sticking out the middle of the outer tube like the fuse to an M80. Looked similar in size too.
 

comnoz

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Time Warp said:
I'm looking at the one above that attaching to the frame (r/h side) and looks to have a 3/8 nut on the l/h side back to the engine case.
Actually one end looks like a ball joint,some form of panhard bar. ?

OK, That is a linkage I made using one of my headsteady tie rods. I have removed the isolastic washers from the front mount and use the tie rod to eliminate the sideways play. That has been on there for several years. Jim

P1010094.jpg
 

comnoz

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hobot said:
Would like a review of how you compressed spring to get it in and not get hurt.


Flathead valve spring compressor made it easy. Jim
 
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Ok not a tool i've on hand. Looks like the spring base was already welded on awhile w/o any burnt paint which implies you are just now getting aroundtoit. Only other detail would be how spring is retained from working out. I guess there will be a drain starting on K/W race spring stock... so not to loose control at 7000.

Just curious Jim, how far from your drive way till some open highway?
 

comnoz

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hobot said:
Ok not a tool i've on hand. Looks like the spring base was already welded on awhile w/o any burnt paint which implies you are just now getting aroundtoit. Only other detail would be how spring is retained from working out. I guess there will be a drain starting on K/W race spring stock... so not to loose control at 7000.

Just curious Jim, how far from your drive way till some open highway?

No, I just came up with the idea and welded it on a couple days before I posted it. I used a scotchbrite pad on a grinder to remove the paint before I welded it and mixed some two-pack and repainted it with a brush.

There is a cup machined in the lower bracket and a nub machined on the upper bracket to keep the spring in place.

About 1/2 mile gets me to a highway. Another 7 miles to a 65mph speed-limit. I rode 88 miles mostly at 70 to 80 mph for a test drive after I installed the spring. I also installed a new electronic speedo and tach at the same time so I noticed the miles. Jim
 
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comnoz said:
There is a cup machined in the lower bracket and a nub machined on the upper bracket to keep the spring in place. Jim
I'd wondered about this last night after i'd logged off. Cj
 
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