New project, but missing VIN plate

GraemeH · Sep 10, 2024

I am looking at buying a project bike (1971 Commando roadster) but there is no paperwork at all. The VIN plate is missing but the number is stamped on the frame where the VIN would have been. Would this have been done by Norton prior to the VIN being attached? Or is it likely some previous owner did it?

Can I buy a VIN plate somewhere and stamp it myself, or get one made?

Thanks

GraemeH · Sep 10, 2024

Here's what it looks like

johnm · Sep 10, 2024

How and if you can register the bike for the road is very much country dependant. You will have to check with the authorities in your own country. Often local vintage clubs, car and bike can be very helpful.

Other people should know more about the stamping for your year but it does look a bit home made to me. You can see one of the plate rivet holes in your photo.

The plates are available from Andover Norton. You will need to do a bit of research to select the right one..

kommando · Sep 10, 2024

GraemeH said:
Would this have been done by Norton prior to the VIN being attached? Or is it likely some previous owner did it?

Norton did not stamp the frame until much later, first it was done at the frame maker and not related to any Factory numbering and then on the 850 MK3 it finally was recorded on the despatch records.

So this was stamped later by a previous owner or dealer. With no paperwork to back it up you cannot determine if that number was on the Red Plate or just made up to suit it being a 71.

GraemeH · Sep 10, 2024

I should have mentioned, it is the same number as the motor. But I guess someone could have faked the frame stamp to make it look like matching numbers, though that would be a bit extreme just for the sake of slightly increasing the value.

Good to know I can get a new one made up. Thanks

MichaelB · Sep 10, 2024

I would ask what happened to the VIN plate and where is it?
They just don’t fall off.

kommando · Sep 10, 2024

GraemeH said:
But I guess someone could have faked the frame stamp to make it look like matching numbers, though that would be a bit extreme just for the sake of slightly increasing the value.

Well if you got hold of a different frame with the wrong number on the plate then the easy way to use the current paperwork would have been to remove the plate and then stamp the engine number directly onto the frame.

The way Norton did the plate with no matching number stamped directly onto the frame is too open to abuse, but also hard to disprove once the right plate covers the evidence.

Your choice, either walk away or point out the issue to get the price down and order the plate.

marshg246 · Sep 10, 2024

GraemeH said:
I am looking at buying a project bike (1971 Commando roadster) but there is no paperwork at all. The VIN plate is missing but the number is stamped on the frame where the VIN would have been. Would this have been done by Norton prior to the VIN being attached? Or is it likely some previous owner did it?

Can I buy a VIN plate somewhere and stamp it myself, or get one made?

Thanks

At your serial number there should ne NO number stamped into the frame. It would have had a Certification Label (VIN Plate) with the serial number and date. My best guess for the date would be JAN 71 or FEB 71.

Are there 4 holes to mount the plate?

AN will sell you a Certification Label stamped as you need, and they have the hammer drive screws to mount it.

GraemeH · 2024-11-05T06:31:56-0700

I now have the Hemmings videos, the Norman White book, the official workshop manual, bookmarked lots of threads on this forum.... so I took the plunge and bought this:

Was originally red and exported to Bertarelli in Italy in April 1971 according to the dispatch records. The only paperwork I have is the first page of the Italian registration document, but I'll worry about officialdom if I ever get that far.

Other than that I have no history of who did it or why it is in bits.

Spent day 1 yesterday building a motor support out of scrap metal and today taking the head apart. I am stuck now as I don't have a 1/4WW narrow socket for the 3 front bolts deep down in the head. The next challenges are creating space in my garage for a workbench, getting a broken sparkplug out of the head, finding second-hand parts if possible (there are plenty missing bits).

Not sure what is going on here:

Need to find somewhere to put the mini and build a workbench:

I bought the other Commando in January also from Italy (I live over the border in Austria). So at least I have a working model for reference....

Anyway I am sure I will be asking for plenty advice here. Now off to tour the internet for a 1/4ww narrow socket.

concours · 2024-11-05T06:56:09-0700

GraemeH said:
I now have the Hemmings videos, the Norman White book, the official workshop manual, bookmarked lots of threads on this forum.... so I took the plunge and bought this:

View attachment 117137

Was originally red and exported to Bertarelli in Italy in April 1971 according to the dispatch records. The only paperwork I have is the first page of the Italian registration document, but I'll worry about officialdom if I ever get that far.

View attachment 117141

Other than that I have no history of who did it or why it is in bits.

Spent day 1 yesterday building a motor support out of scrap metal and today taking the head apart. I am stuck now as I don't have a 1/4WW narrow socket for the 3 front bolts deep down in the head. The next challenges are creating space in my garage for a workbench, getting a broken sparkplug out of the head, finding second-hand parts if possible (there are plenty missing bits).

View attachment 117138

Not sure what is going on here:

View attachment 117139

Need to find somewhere to put the mini and build a workbench:

View attachment 117142

I bought the other Commando in January also from Italy (I live over the border in Austria). So at least I have a working model for reference....

Anyway I am sure I will be asking for plenty advice here. Now off to tour the internet for a 1/4ww narrow socket.

It is wise to seek "the officialdom" BEFORE you invest time, effort & MONEY.
It's a policy I've lived by for many years.

In the US, if the vehicle comes back as having been reported stolen, it's possible to lose all you've put into it.

JMWO

grandpaul · 2024-11-05T07:48:30-0700

That will make a wonderful "Before & After" photo contrast!

The tube on the backside plate of the timing cover is a crankcase breather stub. You'll want a reed valve for that, I have a lump to cut two of them from. I also have a decent pile of old Commando stuff that I don't need, hit me up via PM.

GraemeH · 2024-11-05T09:57:10-0700

Is a box spanner good enough for the cylinder head bolts? This is on AN. Seems it would be a bit flimsy for that?

06.7624.1/4
BOX SPANNER 1/4 x 3/16" WHIT (CYLINDER HEAD)

L.A.B. · 2024-11-05T10:27:36-0700

GraemeH said:
Is a box spanner good enough for the cylinder head bolts? This is on AN. Seems it would be a bit flimsy for that?

You will probably want to retorque them when you refit the head so a socket is a better idea (3/8 square drive preferably).

Time Warp · 2024-11-05T15:17:55-0700

GraemeH said:
Here's what it looks like

There is nothing but black paint under the plate on the steering head of a 1971 20M3S Commando so that number has been added after it left the factory.
I did replace the VIN plate but took extra care to save the original for legality purposes.

Only the country legal system will dictate what happens with a new plate added and not having the original at hand.

Your engine number is stamped in the concave curve of the case (like mine) so will be March or early April 1971, the number was moved rearward to the flat surface sometime after that time period. (Maybe the guy who could stamp in that previous location retired)

This is the plate for the bike you have with that one only 500 or so after my own March 1971 stamped 1971 Fastback.

Andover Norton - CERTIFICATION LABEL - 06.1441

CERTIFICATION LABEL

andover-norton.co.uk

The vent from the location of what would have been the starter motor is fairly pointless as the divider wall is not drilled like the later engines to allow air flow from the central crankcase to the timing chest in any real volume.
The hole highlighted is the only purpose drilling on the camshaft breather 20M3S engine so flow would be restricted unless the case had extra's added for that purpose (venting)

GraemeH · 2024-11-06T10:00:08-0700

Yes, the records show 29th March 1971. Will order a new VIN plate to prove that

Not sure what the first photo in above post is showing.

Still waiting for a 1/4WW, 3/8 drive socket to arrive. In the meantime I failed to get the broken spark plug out, but did manage to clean up the exhaust port threads enough for the rose to screw all the way home.

Will ask more about the venting later.

New project, but missing VIN plate

GraemeH

GraemeH

Attachments

johnm

Attachments

kommando

GraemeH

MichaelB

"Sons of Arthritus"

kommando

marshg246

GraemeH

concours

grandpaul

GraemeH

L.A.B.

Moderator

Time Warp

.......back to the 70's.

Andover Norton - CERTIFICATION LABEL - 06.1441

GraemeH

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