New member introduction and a question for you.

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baz said:
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys whether my numbers match or not
My bikes are built by me from parts ,my bikes are just for riding and not as some sort of investment
Click to expand...
Baz, I'm liking your response in a reply rather than a "click" as I totally agree.

Cheers,

cliffa.
 
Glen[/QUOTE]
worntorn said:
The Vincent club has a registrar who can tell you if the upper and rear frame numbers for your bike are correct for the engine. The frame numbers when new were always different from engine numbers, usually by a factor of 1900, but not always.
One of my Rapides has Comet frame parts.
When I provided the bike's numbers to the club, the Registar informed me that the original upper frame is on a running bike in Sweden and the original rear frame on a running bike in Scotland. I haven't bothered to contact those owners because matching numbers aren't very important to me.
Using information provided by the club Registrar, local club members here have done several swaps to put original frames back with their engines. Often this kills two birds with one stone, correcting both bikes involved in the swap.
It seems that in the 50s, 60s and 70s when matching numbers on machinery was of very little or no importance, anything went. People assembled all sorts of combos just to get a runner.
So Jdubs suggestion not only is a good one, it already exists and is in use in at least one other club.

Glen
Click to expand...

A good idea you say. Give me an example of how it would work, including how a gearbox, or engine, or frame, from a still running commando came to be in another bike. And it has to be an example that is a repeatable thing, not some outlandish unlikely event that would almost certainly never happen, and if it did it would never happen again.
 
NorComCycles said:
A good idea you say. Give me an example of how it would work, including how a gearbox, or engine, or frame, from a still running commando came to be in another bike. And it has to be an example that is a repeatable thing, not some outlandish unlikely event that would almost certainly never happen, and if it did it would never happen again.
Click to expand...
I mentioned (above) at least two totally reasonable situations where swaps happen.

The only critical aspect (in the USA) is that the frame and title stay together. In SOME states (not all), there are instances where the engine number has been matched to the title, and the bike was legal (happens on choppers and other customs, COULD POSSIBLY happen with a Commando and an understanding DMV official)
 
grandpaul said:
Not necessarily.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily what?

grandpaul said:
Not necessarily. I once bought a huge lot of bikes and parts in a big U-Haul truck; in that lot were several Norton heads, cases, transmissions, and transmission cradles. None of the cases' serial numbers matched the transmissions.
Click to expand...

I see no meaningful point being made here.


grandpaul said:
As you used the term "owners", you overlooked the possibility of "breakers" (salvage yards).
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The "breakers" are clearly the owners, unless you believe that "breakers" don't own the vehicles they are dis-assmebling. I overlooked nothing. And if any thought power at all is put into it, if the owner is a "breaker", then that reinforces my position.


grandpaul said:
Of course, another very real possibility is that the CASES were previously grenaded, and a replacement set has been installed with a replacement ID tag on the frame, stamped to match the cases on a salvage build.

As mismatched as this bike is, it's a very plausible explanation.
Click to expand...

Although paraphrased, you are basically quoting me.
 
NorComCycles said:
Glen
Click to expand...


A good idea you say. Give me an example of how it would work, including how a gearbox, or engine, or frame, from a still running commando came to be in another bike. And it has to be an example that is a repeatable thing, not some outlandish unlikely event that would almost certainly never happen, and if it did it would never happen again.[/QUOTE]


I just gave you several examples from a different marque.
Why would the mix and match be any different with Nortons?
What does "still running" have to do with anything?
I was at a swap meet about ten years ago when a fellow showed up with a pickup truck full of Commandos in bits, $1500 for the works. Supposedly there were 3 complete bikes in there, but much of it was in terrible shape.
If the buyer doesn't care about matching numbers he will start assembling the better parts into bikes without worrying about the numbers.
Even now a Commando with matching numbers isnt particularly valuable. Ten or fifteen years ago matching numbers were of no importance on a Commando.


Glen
 
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worntorn said:
A good idea you say. Give me an example of how it would work, including how a gearbox, or engine, or frame, from a still running commando came to be in another bike. And it has to be an example that is a repeatable thing, not some outlandish unlikely event that would almost certainly never happen, and if it did it would never happen again.
Click to expand...


I just gave you several examples from a different marque.
Why would the mix and match be any different with Nortons?
What does "still running" have to do with anything?
I was at a swap meet about ten years ago when a fellow showed up with a pickup truck full of Commandos in bits, $1500 for the works. Supposedly there were 3 complete bikes in there, but much of it was in terrible shape.
If the buyer doesn't care about matching numbers he will start assembling the better parts into bikes without worrying about the numbers.
Even now a Commando with matching numbers isnt particularly valuable. Ten or fifteen years ago matching numbers were of no importance on a Commando.


Glen[/QUOTE]

All you have done is adde weight to what I initially said. And apparently worldwide we have to rely on truckloads of parts, assembled randomly by one person, and then we can start a register and return all the parts back to where they should be.

Can you not tell when a concept is idiotic?
 
grandpaul said:
I mentioned (above) at least two totally reasonable situations where swaps happen.

The only critical aspect (in the USA) is that the frame and title stay together. In SOME states (not all), there are instances where the engine number has been matched to the title, and the bike was legal (happens on choppers and other customs, COULD POSSIBLY happen with a Commando and an understanding DMV official)
Click to expand...

I am not talking about when parts are changed out, I am talking about the extreme unlikeliness that they could ever be returned.

The rest of your post is nonsense, and has nothing to do with this thread.
 
baz said:
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys whether my numbers match or not
My bikes are built by me from parts ,my bikes are just for riding and not as some sort of investment
Click to expand...

Me either, I just find the suggestion (not made by you) that your matching number parts are out there somewhere being used, and that you could somehow get them back, delusional.
 
NorComCycles said:
I just find the suggestion that your matching number parts are out there somewhere being used, and that you could somehow get them back, delusional.
Click to expand...
I think "delusional" is too far.

Because of the fact that so many bikes are (and have been) parted out on ebay over the last decade at least, there is always a remote POSSIBILITY that a person could buy a specific numbered transmission.

I happen to have three Triumph pre-unit transmissions sitting on the floor in my shop. I believe there is a POSSIBILITY that someone could request one of those three serial numbers, and although the chances are remote, I would happily sell it along. I never had the cases or frames to match any of these 3 transmissions, but there is definitely a CHANCE that someone out there does.

[EDIT]
Come to think of it, a sold an empty Norton tranny case because I gutted it along with the cover to complete my VR880 transmission. I don't know that I ever bothered to see what the serial number on it was, but there is at least a remote POSSIBILITY that it could have been the one that the original poster happens to be looking for! Yes, the odds may be astronomical, but there IS a chance, as long as it hasn't been smashed to bits or scrapped and melted down.
 
My bike's numbers match. Perhaps that fact adds some value to a complete running sorted out commando, but that is based on a certain person's asthetic and nothing else, IF the non-matching parts are essentially the same parts with a different number stamped on them. If you get 1 person to believe that numbers matching is more valuable, then you have a single person who will pay more for your numbers matching bike (or car, etc) If you have 2 people who believe it, you have an auction. If you have most of the people who value commandos (owners, collectors, wanna-be owner's) then you have a consensus in the market that there's extra value to "numbers matching" bikes.

Certainly there's all different kinds of asthetics related to old vehicles. There's alway some guy way out on the extreme who wants the lowest serial number bike with low mileage and the original tires (just about rotting off) as a museum piece. That's understandable to me, especially if the bike is going to be displayed in a museum. As a rider of old bikes, it doesn't mean as much to me if your gearbox shell has a different number stamped on it. No more than if you have swapped the original pistons, or valves or sump plug because it's been buggered by 100 wrenches.

Numbers matching seems like a sales gimmick to me, much like the "original survivor" moniker. It's aimed at a group of people who "collect" things, not so much riders (or drivers) Riders and drivers tend to buy cars that drive well, even if that includes some Non-stock parts to make their vintage vehicle more reliable, safer, or less prone to breakdown.
 
since i am so late to this thread, i will gently suggest the only way i see this working is if there was such a thing as a "orphan thread".

you post either frame, engine or GBox with serial number for which you have no other matching parts...

:oops:
 
For what it worth , mostly what I see in the adverts is that if numbers match , that fact is almost always mentioned in the write up , not a concern for me but as mentioned it sure is for some folks ... when the seller was helping me get my Commando ready for presale inspection last thing he mentioned was “oh,yeah” it got matching numbers , this was after we had settled on price ... so I guess it falls into the “different strokes for different folks”
category , and provides for endless discussion on forums like this ....
Craig
 
Hello to all, and apologies for any dust I have thrown up. I should explain that my last two Commandos were purchased and restored / ridden in the '90's and were common and far less molested than what I find today. For me, the "new" reality is simply that these bikes appear, to me, to have increased in value and decreased in originality. But that is the future for any transport as beloved as the Commando, so there you (I) are!

I would prefer a triple matching motorcycle, that is me. But I won't be thinking about serial numbers when I am blazing down the back roads for certain.

Finally, I appreciate the courage it takes to step forward and call a fellow owner out - in the civility we all must endure nowadays, it is refreshing to see such honesty and interest in other's delusions.
 
I'm guessing you mean " absence of courage"
It takes zero courage to call a person an idiot via keyboard.
Funny thing, internet people have told me again and again that I'm an idiot but to date that has never happened in a face to face discussion.
Just one of the wonderful quirks of the internet.

Glen
 
NorComCycles said:
Your premise seems to be that somehow, and for whatever reason, owners have removed perfectly good gearboxes, engines, or indeed even frames, and fitted other such items that assumably were made available due to similar actions by someone else. I find that ridiculous. The reason that your bike, for instance, has a non matching number gearbox is almost certainly that the original shattered to pieces at some point, or at least suffered irreparable damage of some kind, and a replacement used gearbox was found from a bike that likely was wrapped around a tree. When you see engines and gearboxes in non matching frames, it is almost completely certain that whatever bikes started life with those components have long since bit the dust. There could be other reasons in a small number of cases, like perhaps a 5 speed upgrade, but that would by default preclude the owner ever wanting back something that he sold because he no longer wanted it in the first place.
Click to expand...
Not always. There are people on eBay who strip perfectly good bikes and sell them part by part. The 74 that I'm building right now was just a frame, engine cases, gearbox case, and title, all matching. To build it, I bought a complete mess of a mostly 74 with nothing that matched and no title. So, I have a frame, engine cases, and gearbox cases, none of which match for sell and I'll have a 74 back on the road. Of course, I would have liked to buy the titled bike whole, but he made MUCH more money selling the parts and me the leavings.
 
Jdub said:
Hello to all, and apologies for any dust I have thrown up. I should explain that my last two Commandos were purchased and restored / ridden in the '90's and were common and far less molested than what I find today. For me, the "new" reality is simply that these bikes appear, to me, to have increased in value and decreased in originality. But that is the future for any transport as beloved as the Commando, so there you (I) are!

I would prefer a triple matching motorcycle, that is me. But I won't be thinking about serial numbers when I am blazing down the back roads for certain.

Finally, I appreciate the courage it takes to step forward and call a fellow owner out - in the civility we all must endure nowadays, it is refreshing to see such honesty and interest in other's delusions.
Click to expand...
Sorry this happened to the thread you started. It rarely happens here. Makes me sick when it does.
 
There have been lots of dust ups here over the years I been active .... our most tragic was our loss of Hobot , he was just a great contributor and very entertaining with his written word .... although some just did not “get” him ....
Craig
 
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