new gas tank - source???

lazyeye6 said:

While I would recommend treating any tank with a rust dissolving treatment before any sort of lining product, I would suggest that POR-15 might not be
the best product on the market. Look at Caswell's, or better yet don't line the tank at all unless absolutely necessary.

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+1 here too. I used POR-15 once MANY years ago ... on a Norton Roadster tank! Anyway, I would NOT use POR-15 again. That having been said, I have had a NAPA shop line several of my Asian tanks with "Red Kote?" ... had "Jeff" at Jakes Radiator Shop in Norwalk, Ohio sealing them starting over 20 plus years ago. (I don't seal them unless I'm desperate either. I mean, "pay" to have them sealed for me.) The ones I still have have held up well, don't know about the bikes I sold though.

For steel tanks I highly recommend Bill Hirsch's tank sealer.

batrider said:

No sealant for me ever but I would recommend pressure testing the tank prior to painting. I know my painter insists on this and had all kinds of plugs and fittings on hand to accomplish it. It protects him and you in case there's a leak after painting.

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4 psi max pressure for testing tanks

I would've said 3 lbs. I have done a test myself on tanks I've painted and I just sealed it up and put in a bathtub with hot water. The hot water warms the air in the tank and creates enough pressure to make air bubbles come out of any pinholes.

joe czech said:

got it - been looking into a POR-15 kit - nowhere can I find for "new or old" tanks in the instructions. mostly repair and seal old rusty tanks. I tend to run non-ethanol gas - hopefully rust issues won't rear it ugly head anytime soon.

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maylar said:

For steel tanks I highly recommend Bill Hirsch's tank sealer.

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why?

I am with those above who would not use a tank sealer except in utter desperation.

I would "condition" a new steel tank with a product called Chemprime. This is essentially phosphoric acid typically used to remove rust, but with a proprietary ingredient that converts bare steel to a rust inhibitor compound.

With new steel, I would slosh the Chemprime around the inside of the tank, drain and let dry .... do not rinse. The rust inhibitor forms on air dry. I suppose a repeat of the procedure could not hurt anything.

Slick

marshg246 said:

I have a set in Red and a set in Black. The red set has never been installed. The Black set is currently on the 850 I have for sale but I don't care if I sell it black or red. The tank and side covers are EMGO. They are better quality than OEM in my opinion (usually can't say that about EMGO). I can get you the bare EMGO tank if that's what you want. PM if interested.
(photo snipped)

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I was working at the factory at Marston Rd when we switched from 'glass tanks to metal. It sounds so simple but it wasn't. We went through all the stamping and welding processes (I'm no good at paint but I left that to other people but that's one thing the suppliers had nailed pretty much out of the gate) and it appears to me that EMGO have set industrially correct stamping tools and accurate jigs for their production. Everything I've seen is that they are *at least as good* as the factory ones from 47 years ago. It also appears that they've learned from out research on configurations for the flanges along the lower edges and steering neck (which happen to look like sh-one-t to me but are necessary to get a good rigid seam and a reliable seal on production). I don't know what welding process that EMGO use but it's *really* good!

Regarding the ongoing debate on tank sealers / linings etc.- whatever one prefers to call them - I can offer up my experience for whatever that may be worth . I have used the epoxy system from Eastwood three times . The first was on my 1950 ES2 tank . The kit from Eastwood supplies all the ingredients except for, IIRC , acetone.
It has been a while so I may not remember accurately.
At any rate, I initially did my ES 2 tank. The process was not complicated but it is a little messy and it takes an entire day .
The end result was no more rust in the fuel and I was very pleased with the result . When I acquired my Commando a few years later I did the same to its steel tank . There was never any leakage or breakdown of either liner in either tank and I use pump gas with ethanol but I do religiously treat with Stabil.
When I restored my ES 2 over a 4 year period I dissolved the liner in it’s tank in order to have the tank plated . This was an extremely laborious process over several days consuming several gallons of acetone. When the plating was done I re - lined the tank again with the Eastwood product and it has given me excellent service over 9 years without a hint of breakdown.
The liner in the Commando tank gave me the same trouble free service over four or five years but then sat idle with the tank empty for a number of years. I have just completed a rebuild of the Commando that spanned a couple years. I fully intended to dissolve the Eastwood liner and replace with same before having the tank painted but my painter offered to do it for a reasonable figure so I went that route .
He uses the system from Caswell exclusively so I agreed to that . I hope it is as good as the Eastwood product.
Many swear against lining tanks and believe ultimately all will eventually fail . They may be correct but what time is involved ?
As known from personal experience I have had no negative experience in nearly 10 years . If my Commando tank now gives the same performance I will be 77 before I may ( emphasis on “ may “)
have to worry. Seems like a fair bargain to me.
Am I the exception? Am I simply just lucky? Am I more diligent than others in application of the systems ? I don’t think so .
All that being said I would not line a brand new Emgo steel tank because it should not need it . Phosphoric treatment yes and save the epoxy liner bit for the future if needed.

texasSlick said:

I am with those above who would not use a tank sealer except in utter desperation.

I would "condition" a new steel tank with a product called Chemprime. This is essentially phosphoric acid typically used to remove rust, but with a proprietary ingredient that converts bare steel to a rust inhibited compound.

With new steel, I would slosh the Chemprime around the inside of the tank, drain and let dry .... do not rinse. The rust inhibitor forms on air dry. I suppose a repeat of the procedure could not hurt anything.

Slick

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Thanks for this - I'll try it as my last step in the future.

I think I've recounted this story before, but here goes again. A couple of years ago I got a 69 BSA B25 back on the road for a young man. The tank had original paint in decent condition so I had to be careful with it. The picture shows the rust that came out using nuts and bolts dry. I don't remember every detail, but basically: next, I stuck a power washer wand in and hit everywhere I could and drained it. Then I put in about a quart of 20% muriatic acid sealed the gas cap and turned it every which way for about five minutes followed by immediately power washing again. Then I blew it somewhat dry and put in about a pint of WD40 and some nuts and bolts and turned it every which way again for quite a while. The I drained it replaced the petcocks, installed it on the bike and filled it with gas. I told the owner to keep it full as much as reasonable and to try to never use the reserve. The bike is still running fine today.

texasSlick said:

This is essentially phosphoric acid typically used to remove rust, but with a proprietary ingredient that converts bare steel to a rust inhibitor compound.

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I sense BS, phosphoric acid removes the iron oxide and then once removed turns the top layer of iron into iron phosphate, the iron phosphate is like the layer of aluminium oxide on aluminium and is dense enough to provide a mild protective anti rust layer. So phosphoric acid does what they claim the propriety ingredient does anyway.

@kommando and all:

Here is a link to the MSDS spec. on Chemprime .... https://www.omiesp.com/img/product/description/ALCO_CHEMPRIME_SDS.pdf

According to the info, the protective film is iron-zinc strontium. You will have to be your own judge, but I think treating a new steel tank with this is preferable to no trearment.

Slick

Just asking: I know we love and obsess over our bikes, but... anyone here worry about whether their car/van petrol tank has been: 'treated'??
Fibreglass, a repaired 'original', I can understand the want/need to preserve, but new steel??
Each to their own, of course, but sometimes I do wonder if the worriers will find peace when they no longer have anything to worry about...
No offence intended

concours said:

why?

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it treats existing rust and prevents future rust.

maylar said:

it treats existing rust and prevents future rust.

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New tank. No existing rust.
As for preventing future rust, this is all you need, once a month during use. (Or never if you are using E10 pump gas like here in the US)

I have no experience with POR-15 with fuel tanks but I've used it extensively on another project (six wheels rather than two) and found it vexing. It is the world's most difficult finishing/protective product to use and deal with. Unless you have gallons of acetone, be ready to throw away every pot, brush, and spray gun you have after one use. POR "sets" (you wouldn't call it dry because it chemically reacts to the moisture in the air to form a very hard plastic-like coating that seems to be impervious to anything I've ever tried to remove it/ smooth it/ polish it with) in a short time and then it's what you see is what you get. Also, once you open a can, it's almost impossible to get it sealed off again so that the whole can doesn't react and harden -- consider any container opened to have the remaining contents unusable.
When all is well, it seems to bond to metal more completely than any other finish material I've ever seen. The stuff forms what appears to be the perfect chemical and air and water vapor seal. OTOH, I've done big areas and had parts that came out perfect with diamond hard seal coating and other places where it fell off in sheets after 6-8 weeks. I'm guessing it's preparation (isn't it always with paint??) but I'd prepped the entire surface the same way.
POR is sort of like paint for someone who likes to shoot rabbits with a cannon rather than a .22 rifle. I can't imagine trying to work with it as a tank sealer, but -- if by some super process, you could get a smooth, complete, consistent coat and get extra stuff out of the tank before it "went off", it just might make an ultimate liner surface. But woe betideth anyone who has the process go wrong before you finish the sealing job.
And, if it touches any clothing or fabric, it's there permanently. If it touches skin, you have about 3 minutes to get it off with washes of acetone (on your skin - sounds really inviting, right?) and if it's under a fingernail, you look like a punk rocker for 6 weeks.
I'm guessing that when it's right, it's wonderful stuff but IME it's difficult, expensive, quirky stuff to use and when things go wrong, there are no little problems -- only disasters.

I don’t think I would bother sealing a new steel tank but I got good results with Tapox. I used this to seal a pinholed steel tank on my Trident, and has lasted 4 years so far. They also do an excellent rust remover.

kommando said:

I sense BS, phosphoric acid removes the iron oxide and then once removed turns the top layer of iron into iron phosphate, the iron phosphate is like the layer of aluminium oxide on aluminium and is dense enough to provide a mild protective anti rust layer. So phosphoric acid does what they claim the propriety ingredient does anyway.

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Interesting. The Naval Jelly you could buy many years ago (orange gel) had phosphoric acid as it's active ingredient and they used to claim that it left the surface protected from rust just like you said. I looked today and it's now a Locktite product with phosphoric acid, other acids and chemicals and they don't claim that. Today, it's somewhere between 10% and 30% phosphoric acid (trade secret the exact %). I wonder how concentrated is needs to be to do any good.

marshg246 said:

Today, it's somewhere between 10% and 30% phosphoric acid (trade secret the exact %). I wonder how concentrated is needs to be to do any good.

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You can use a low % and it will work just as well as a high % but will take longer to act and will need higher temps. I get away with 5% in my ultrasonic cleaner bath as I get get than up to 60C if needed, I ultrasonic until the rust is gone and then leave the parts overnight in the solution for the iron phosphate to form. For filling a petrol tank I go 25% but if I do not see enough of the dark iron phosphate after emptying then I mix a smaller amount of 50% and swill it around inside the tank. If you get the conditions wrong you know as it will flash rust with a brown bloom appearing in a few seconds.

joe czech said:

starting to look for a new (roadster) gas tank for my 74 - suggestions? plenty of stuff on fleabay and coming from India, and prices vary. personally, I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling with any of these tanks. emgo seems to be a decent replacement. emailed one fleabay seller - said their tanks were made from proper tooling and were better, and more correct than anything available - UK seller. seller?? when I emailed them on where their tanks were made, all they said was they were not permitted to ID the country of origin - "not permitted" - to me, that was a red flag warning and most likely India.

don't mind paying a little more for a quality product - just need some suggestions, vendors, suppliers, etc.. TIA....

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Hi
Look at Commando specialties $ US 274 or $US 250 from website. Has anyone had experience wirh these tanks.
Tony

surprise, surprise -- received my new emgo tank yesterday. don't know much about the company "emgo", but for some reason, I was thinking these things were UK made, however on the box, says made in Taiwan (not a problem, as long as the quality's there). overall, close inspection is good - no apparent issues, but before I do anything, going to check threaded holes and install mounting hardware for a dry fit to the frame - then on to a pressure test before any paint prep.