NEC NORTON

MAK · Dec 7, 2021

Thoughts on Norton at the NEC.
The stand was very Spartan but the staff were friendly enough.
No information to be had as everything is still to be decided!
961 parts are going through a scrutiny process so heaven knows when they will become available.
The V4 Cafe Racer definitely looks better in the flesh but after sitting on it , it’s more uncomfortable than a Paul Smart replica.
More for the young bendy types.
Other than that it was a bit of a disappointment.
But hopefully this is just the start and better news will come.

italia · Dec 7, 2021

MAK said:
The V4 Cafe Racer definitely looks better in the flesh but after sitting on it , it’s more uncomfortable than a Paul Smart replica.

That's pretty uncomfortable. Hopefully the'll do a version with a flatter bar like most of the other super naked bikes out there. My V4 Aprilia Tuono bars are nice level, and with the risers on them, they're as comfortable as any standard bike

MAK · Dec 7, 2021

MAK said:
Thoughts on Norton at the NEC.
The stand was very Spartan but the staff were friendly enough.
No information to be had as everything is still to be decided!
961 parts are going through a scrutiny process so heaven knows when they will become available.
The V4 Cafe Racer definitely looks better in the flesh but after sitting on it , it’s more uncomfortable than a Paul Smart replica.
More for the young bendy types.
Other than that it was a bit of a disappointment.
But hopefully this is just the start and better news will come.

Vernon240 · Dec 8, 2021

The cafe racer was strictly off limits when I was there, so no chance to sit on it. the V4SV was 'sitonable' though and felt low. Did the CR feel lower than the SV? they looked very similar.

MAK · Dec 8, 2021

Vernon240 said:
The cafe racer was strictly off limits when I was there, so no chance to sit on it. the V4SV was 'sitonable' though and felt low. Did the CR feel lower than the SV? they looked very similar.

Yep my mistake.
It was the V4SV I sat on .
The bars did look about the same height.
Are you fancying one.

Vernon240 · Dec 8, 2021

Right now, not sure, but I'm not ruling one out, BUT all depends on price, spec and how confident things look at Norton...and to be honest, how they deal with 961 owners....but the screen on the CR just looks a bit naff and is probably my biggest issue with the design. Yes, their designers have done a great job.....but then they go and slap on a generic 'me to' screen on it.

Just saw this pop up on you tube:

The guy speaking about the 961 was the guy I spoke to. He came across better in person. The 'we designed this' and 'we tried to do that' sort of thing in the interview was slightly irksome. The 'Bespoke engine to Norton' was an interesting comment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 961 classic is simply the existing 961 available in the single specification. Norton only building 28 is also interesting news as well.

Voodooo · Dec 8, 2021

It’s pretty bad when the second guy (bald headed) talks about the 961 and says “we” did this and we built that and he clearly talks about the 180° crank.
He lost my attention at that moment.

The exhaust on that V4 looks exactly the same as the Arrow exhaust on my Ducati Diavel. I’ll guess who made that.

Vernon240 · Dec 8, 2021

Voodooo said:
It’s pretty bad when the second guy (bald headed) talks about the 961 and says “we” did this and we built that and he clearly talks about the 180° crank.
He lost my attention at that moment.

Maybe they redesigned it. I think mine has one of the 270 degree cranks!

TonyA · Dec 8, 2021

Voodooo said:
It’s pretty bad when the second guy (bald headed) talks about the 961 and says “we” did this and we built that and he clearly talks about the 180° crank.
He lost my attention at that moment.

The exhaust on that V4 looks exactly the same as the Arrow exhaust on my Ducati Diavel. I’ll guess who made that.

Nice Voodoo.

MAK · Dec 8, 2021

Vernon240 said:
Right now, not sure, but I'm not ruling one out, BUT all depends on price, spec and how confident things look at Norton...and to be honest, how they deal with 961 owners....but the screen on the CR just looks a bit naff and is probably my biggest issue with the design. Yes, their designers have done a great job.....but then they go and slap on a generic 'me to' screen on it.

Just saw this pop up on you tube:

The guy speaking about the 961 was the guy I spoke to. He came across better in person. The 'we designed this' and 'we tried to do that' sort of thing in the interview was slightly irksome. The 'Bespoke engine to Norton' was an interesting comment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 961 classic is simply the existing 961 available in the single specification. Norton only building 28 is also interesting news as well.

They told me that they were doing a lot of 961 testing to evaluate the problems.
Should just look here.!
Wonder what crank mine has?

BritTwit · Dec 8, 2021

Vernon240 said:
Maybe they redesigned it. I think mine has one of the 270 degree cranks!

I doubt that Norton redesigned the 961 to have a 180 degree crank.
That would be nuts on a 961cc vertical twin!
It would maximize the rocking couple of the engine as the pistons alternately rise and fall.
Talk about shaking your teeth loose...
Clearly the bald man misspoke.
But all the same, talk about 961 continuation seems more open minded than before.
If it does continue in production, I'd love to know what components get re-designed.

Vernon240 · Dec 8, 2021

Yep, he did say if they went ahead, they would be making changes to make it 'Their' commando and not the SG commando. I would guess SG selling the rights to the 961 might have something to do with this, although the details on that one are still unclear to me.

Panetone · Dec 8, 2021

The Chinese company have the rights for the 961 engine.
They have not produced one single part for the engine.
Norton has not ordered one single parts.
I know from one of Ollies engineers that the chinese company has contacted Ollie to know what the problems of the engine are.
TVS have contacted Ollie to buy some emproved parts from him.
This is a complete crazy world.
TVS can not use the 961 engine without the permit of the chinese.
I hope that the warehouse of Thiel-Motorsport is more than sufficiently filled.

Vernon240 · Dec 8, 2021

Panetone said:
The Chinese company have the rights for the 961 engine.
They have not produced one single part for the engine.
Norton has not ordered one single parts.
I know from one of Ollies engineers that the chinese company has contacted Ollie to know what the problems of the engine are.
TVS have contacted Ollie to buy some emproved parts from him.
This is a complete crazy world.
TVS can not use the 961 engine without the permit of the chinese.
I hope that the warehouse of Thiel-Motorsport is more than sufficiently filled.

I’m not sure what the deal with the Chinese company is. I’d like to know out of interest. Unless anyone has actually seen the agreement, no one knows.
For example:
Is there a geographic / regional restriction?
What constitutes the 961 engine? If Norton made a 962 engine, would that count?
If they made significant improvements to the design, then who owns the rights?
The Chinese certainly can’t use the Norton name, not outside China anyway.....I would have thought?

An example is I have a Small block ford V8. It has a ford block, but could easily have been a block from a few suppliers, e.g Dart, It just can’t have the Ford name cast into it, but I can bolt parts from any number of manufacturers to build my 302/331/347/363 ford engine and not have a single ford part in it.

The devil is in the detail on what was in the agreement that was signed, how far reaching and specific it is etc. Norton can put their name on anything they please and I can’t see that the Chinese holding rights to the 961 would prevent them comming up with their own very similar, but not identical, parallel twin.

If TVS have contacted Ollie, then they could be looking into using these in the new 961’s. Fact is, TVS/ Norton are building 961’s and intend to sell them, even if it’s only 28. I’d be suprised if they had sought permission, but who knows. 28 May be indicative of a shortage of parts, however, but that does not mean they could not create very similar (and improved) variant.

If I was Norton, would I want to build the 961 exactly as it was, zero changes? Nope, I’m sure there is a load of stuff that could be done to improve it.....and if so, what does that mean for any ‘rights’ the Chinese have?

It’s going to be interesting regarding how this plays out.

As far as Norton not ordering or making a single part, how do you know? Insider knowledge? I have no information on which to confirm or deny that, but maybe you have? If they have reached out to Ollie with a view to buying parts, clearly they are open to buying parts...who’s to say they have not contacted other suppliers?

Welshrugby · Dec 8, 2021

One of the sales guys i spoke to today, said they were interested in hearing from 961 owners about reliability issues and that would help them to put them right. He said a few owners had already been helping on this. I said my view was that although this was a bike they inherited, it would be in their interest to help sort them as we the ones out there with visible "modern"era bikes.

Voodooo · Dec 8, 2021

Vernon240 said:
Maybe they redesigned it. I think mine has one of the 270 degree cranks!

All the 961 have 270 degree cranks. The Norton employee said 180 degree crank. I highly doubt they redesigned anything. Especially when they can’t decide on offering the 961 or not.

Voodooo · Dec 8, 2021

Why would TVS be curious of what existing 961 owners have to say about the 961?
I’m sure many ex Norton employees already mentioned the 961 issues and what they even told Skinner when Garner ran the show.

I also don’t see TVS keeping the air cooled 961 engine alive even if they did keep the commando and dominator we know and love going. The 961 was hardly passing euro 5.

Fast Eddie · Dec 9, 2021

I reckon TVS could get the 961 through Euro regs IF they wanted to.

Lets face it, the EFI system was bottom drawer, so big improvements could be made there. From a noise perspective its the f*cking primary drive clatter that must be the biggest issue. And that needs re designing anyway IMHO (it was definitely one of the reasons I sold mine).

But like I said… IF they want to…

jan nelder · Dec 9, 2021

Fast Eddie said:
I reckon TVS could get the 961 through Euro regs IF they wanted to.

Lets face it, the EFI system was bottom drawer, so big improvements could be made there. From a noise perspective its the f*cking primary drive clatter that must be the biggest issue. And that needs re designing anyway IMHO (it was definitely one of the reasons I sold mine).

But like I said… IF they want to…

and it would be useful if they went through the existing design like they have done with the V4, and then specified how it could be redesigned, and made that available to owners ( at least). Step 2 would be setting up sub contractors to make the components, so that owners could buy parts, obviously.

Vernon240 · Dec 9, 2021

I would not be surprised if they were seriously thinking about a 'classic' range though. Getting bikes through on an SVA basis is surely not scalable...as they are doing with the last Classics....so recon a classic range likely, based on the old 961 (unless significantly changed) engine..less likely.

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