Monoshock John Player??

acotrel · May 5, 2021

The electronics which are being used on some superbikes are car technology. But when used on bikes the game is very different. Riders adjust to the bike. People such as Marquez find the limits by crashing after going extreme.

Bernhard · May 5, 2021

gortnipper said:
Hard to tell which spaceframe this first pic is for?

It doesnt look like the geometry in this one?

Hard to tell?
It was for the bike Dave Coxford rode who almost immediately crashed it, and was turned into a lampstand c/w lampshade!!!

Seeley920 · May 5, 2021

Bernhard said:
Hard to tell?
It was for the bike Dave Coxford rode who almost immediately crashed it, and was turned into a lampstand c/w lampshade!!!

No, it was a monocoque that ended up as a lampshade

SteveA · May 5, 2021

Seeley920 said:
No, it was a monocoque that ended up as a lampshade

Thanks, saved me saying that!

Seeley920 · May 5, 2021

gortnipper said:
Hard to tell which spaceframe this first pic is for?

It doesnt look like the geometry in this one?

It was the bike on the right in the lower pic.

Seeley920 · May 5, 2021

SteveA said:
Thanks, saved me saying that!

Never trust the internet for information

cliffa · May 5, 2021

The bike Crox crashed was a monococue not a spaceframe

JPN Monocoque Specs

If you watch this video, what they DON'T tell you is interesting : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHVFS8e3cRY

www.accessnorton.com

SteveA · May 5, 2021

cliffa said:
I had a brief email exchange with Peter Williams some years ago, and he said the Cosworth lump was incredibly heavy as Cosworth were car guys with no bike experience, so everything was massively overscale for a bike. Apparently interaction between NVT and Cosworth engineering teams was banned.

They were race car guys and worked with people obsessed with minimum weight....Jeez, as a V8 that engine won more races than any other race engine in history, it didn't do that by being a boat anchor.

Even PW can have opinions coloured by bitter experience.

Why was it heavy? Because it was designed for a road bike and had all the balancer shaft crap, and lumps of extra casting metal. PW will have hated that because he had been trying to deal with the same issue for decades.

I understood that one of the things Quantel did was dump as much of the road stuff as they could, including the balancer shafts, which were only there to deal with vibration on a 750 twin for a road bike!

acotrel · May 5, 2021

Monoshock came into use in the 1970s with Yamaha and Egli. From memory, it was slightly better than dual shocks on very high powered bikes. I don't think it would be a quantum leap if fitted to a monocoque Commando. It might lose a bit of weight, but not much. For the power of a Commando motor, dual shocks and a normal swing arm are usually quite adequate

cliffa · May 5, 2021

Some interesting reading here..

http://classicbike.biz/Norton/Mags/1970s/Cosworth-Norton.pdf

Carl H · May 5, 2021

lcrken said:
This is Dave on the bike at Daytona in 1974.

View attachment 79604

Pulled the picture off the internet from the sideburn magazine blogspot dated 2011. This is the heading for the photo:

"Dave Aldana at Daytona in '74 on a stainless-steel monocoque Norton (built in '73). One of my all-time fave bikes. BP"

That's all the info there was on the site about the picture.

This picture is also on Jamie Waters' site. Jamie is the current owner of the bike Dave was riding.

Jamie Waters Collection

Ken

http://jamiewaters.com/motorcycles.html , There is a lot of history on Nortons on that site.

My humble street based Commandos racers added some history in that I got 8 members in the AMA hall of fame riding them at NHIS and the old original Laconia track. The old time racers and fans flocked to the bikes at the end of the races and were amazed a Norton could run so quiet, go so fast and no be bleeding oil at the end of a race. Plus at the home track my equipment beat a lot of AHRMA #1 plate holders, thanks to the ability of the riders like Jerry Wood #3 and Todd Henning # 454 at NHIS as well as Dick Klamfoth #2 and Dick Gariepy #55 at The old Laconia track. They needed rides and the bikes did the job in their skilled hands. I was blessed and lucky to pit crew for such men of iron.

Bernhard · May 5, 2021

acotrel said:
Monoshock came into use in the 1970s with Yamaha and Egli. From memory, it was slightly better than dual shocks on very high powered bikes. I don't think it would be a quantum leap if fitted to a monocoque Commando. It might lose a bit of weight, but not much. For the power of a Commando motor, dual shocks and a normal swing arm are usually quite adequate

Vincent were doing their version in the late 1940s early 1950s.............

lcrken · May 5, 2021

gortnipper said:
I know you know, but for others that may not - monoshock is not same as monocoque.

Former is suspension, latter is chassis.

Dave was on a monocoque, not a monoshock bike in the pic, per quote and JW site.

As far as I can tell, Dave never rode the monoshock bike. As Carl mentioned, Dave probably actually asked for pictures of himself on the Monocoque, not the monoshock, and the message was garbled over a poor phone connection. The bike Dave rode at Daytona and in the Transatlantic races in 1974 was the later stainless steel monocoque design. The first monocoque prototype chassis was fabricated in mild steel sheet, the later ones in stainless. I think I read somewhere that the mild steel chassis was never built up into a complete bike, but I'm not totally sure of that.

Ken

lcrken · May 5, 2021

gortnipper said:
I found some more pics, none of the 74.
View attachment 79605 View attachment 79606 View attachment 79607 View attachment 79608

We're now up to four different bikes in this thread, the original monoshock bike, originally meant for the new Cosworth designed engine but actually fitted with with old Commando twin; the factory monocoque JPN racer; the P86 Challenge with Cosworth designed engine; and the non-factory Quantel bike with custom chassis and Cosworth engine. Can be a little onfusing sometimes

.

The Quantel history would make a fascinating story in a thread of it's own. I was fortunate enough to be racing a Norton at Daytona when Roger Marshall won the Battle of the Twins race there on the Quantel bike, and I managed to spend a bit of time talking with him. Lots more info on the bike in this thread:

Quantal Cosworth Norton

1985 Quantal Cosworth Norton http://bevelheaven.com/CosworthNorton.htm Anyone know more about this bike?

www.accessnorton.com

Ken

Carl H · May 5, 2021

lcrken said:
As far as I can tell, Dave never rode the monoshock bike. As Carl mentioned, Dave probably actually asked for pictures of himself on the Monocoque, not the monoshock, and the message was garbled over a poor phone connection. The bike Dave rode at Daytona and in the Transatlantic races in 1974 was the later stainless steel monocoque design. The first monocoque prototype chassis was fabricated in mild steel sheet, the later ones in stainless. I think I read somewhere that the mild steel chassis was never built up into a complete bike, but I'm not totally sure of that.

Ken

PS, I was also confused on monoshock and Monocoque, and I don't know the history of either. David is one of the few legends I know and who rode my bikes and is still living . And like I told David, "I started vintage racing in the late 1980s and had no idea of who the great racers were." The only way I figured it out was how the fans flocked to them and talked so highly about their memories of the great races they rode. But luckily, they were all kind to me and liked my style in the pits and my bikes. Anything beats racing and riding a good bike, instead of sitting at an autograph table all day. It was no hard to get them on board and give it a go. A racer is always a racer and even at their advance age, they rode like the legendary pros they are. Oddly most of them did ride Nortons at one time in their day.

lcrken · May 5, 2021

Carl H said:
PS, I was also confused on monoshock and Monocoque, and I don't know the history of either. David is one of the few legends I know and who rode my bikes and is still living . And like I told David, "I started vintage racing in the late 1980s and had no idea of who the great racers were." The only way I figured it out was how the fans flocked to them and talked so highly about their memories of the great races they rode. But luckily, they were all kind to me and liked my style in the pits and my bikes. Anything beats racing and riding a good bike, instead of sitting at an autograph table all day. It was no hard to get them on board and give it a go. A racer is always a racer and even at their advance age, they rode like the legendary pros they are. Oddly most of them did ride Nortons at one time in their day.

Hi Carl. If the H stands for Hokanson, then we met a few times at AHRMA races back in the day. I was racing a yellow Norton Production Racer, as well as a wideline featherbed with Commando engine. Those really were the good old days.

Ken

Carl H · May 5, 2021

lcrken said:
Hi Carl. If the H stands for Hokanson, then we met a few times at AHRMA races back in the day. I was racing a yellow Norton Production Racer, as well as a wideline featherbed with Commando engine. Those really were the good old days.

Ken

Yes, That be me. Todd Henning #454 did ride my Atlas/Commando a few times and after I stopped racing Wood #3 raced in a few AHRMA races. Yes , those were the days, the grids were filled with big bikes in their classes and Nortons were doing very well. And I met lots of stars thanks to my camera work helping Dick Klamfoth and his family's work to get the Daytona monument a reality. Time flies , but luckily my pictures bring me right back. I'm very proud to be part of the USCRA gang, they had it going on. Dick Klamfoth #2 and Ed Fisher on the #17 bike

cliffa · May 5, 2021

Carl H said:
PS, I was also confused on monoshock and Monocoque, and I don't know the history of either. David is one of the few legends I know and who rode my bikes and is still living . And like I told David, "I started vintage racing in the late 1980s and had no idea of who the great racers were." The only way I figured it out was how the fans flocked to them and talked so highly about their memories of the great races they rode. But luckily, they were all kind to me and liked my style in the pits and my bikes. Anything beats racing and riding a good bike, instead of sitting at an autograph table all day. It was no hard to get them on board and give it a go. A racer is always a racer and even at their advance age, they rode like the legendary pros they are. Oddly most of them did ride Nortons at one time in their day.

Thank god they didn't go on to make a monoshock monococque eh?

We'd all be scuppered then.

cliffa · May 5, 2021

Carl H said:
Yes, That be me. Todd Henning #454 did ride my Atlas/Commando a few times and after I stopped racing Wood #3 raced in a few AHRMA races. Yes , those were the days, the grids were filled with big bikes in their classes and Nortons were doing very well. And I met lots of stars thanks to my camera work helping Dick Klamfoth and his family's work to get the Daytona monument a reality. Time flies , but luckily my pictures bring me right back. I'm very proud to be part of the USCRA gang, they had it going on. Dick Klamfoth #2 and Ed Fisher on the #17 bike View attachment 79616

Carl, the Daytona monument, is that down on the beach ?

acotrel · May 5, 2021

There are two parts to any race circuit - the corners and the straights. Which bit is a monoshock frame more suited to ? Commandos need to be faster in the corners because they are slow down the straights. The Commando motor usually has more torque while other bikes' motors have more top end power. If you are not prepared to ride fast in corners, don't ride a Commando. Control of damping by the rear shocks is very important, it affects tyre adhesion.
If you race a TZ750 Yamaha, it is usually wise to get it upright before you fang it.
There was a race where PW finished ahead of the big two strokes with his Commando.

Monoshock John Player??

Similar threads