MK 3 Engine numbers help needed ??

Norton Dave · Mar 29, 2012

:roll: Hullo to every one on the forum , I was interested when looking on Ebay that has a MK3 for sale , and for what reasons only showed the first four engine numbers as 3253XX . I know that the first engine number started at 325001 , so no unusual thing about that except it also stated year of manufacture as 12/1974 . This is what I find strange as all my books state MK3 start of production Feb /1975 . I know also there are some MK2 A "S made in 1975 up to about Febuary . Might need LAB to help on this , Would the date and engine numbers be correct ??? The auction is by a dealer .

dynodave · Mar 29, 2012

Sorry, I have many worthless glossy coffee table books too!
one # from my research,
325545 Nov-74

ZFD · Mar 29, 2012

Not that simple!
The first Mk3s ever were ##s 324903 through 324912, all off track on 6th July 74, which went out to Norton Triumph International and one to Norton Triumph Corporation (USA); most probably pre-production test bikes.

What I believe are production bikes started indeed with 325001 , built 18-11-74, Red, which went out to Berliner. The first ever built, however, was 325005 built 13-11-74, colour white (?), to Berliner.

Interestingly, amongst the early ones are a bunch of "JPN"s. I know the brochure for the Mk3 shows a JPN Mk3, but I thought they were never built. I have never seen one in the flesh, but then they all seem to have been shipped to the USA and Canada.

#325545 may be (wrongly) stamped Nov.74, but did roll off the track on 10th December, red, Berliner. They probably over-enthusiasticly stamped the red identification plates before the bikes were actually made.

Joe/Andover Norton

cjandme · Mar 29, 2012

I've been on here a while and it seems that this is a common theme. Norton had a few different ways of doing it's registration and depending on where it was sold sometimes the local Department of motor vehicles comes into play too. Cj

L.A.B. · Mar 29, 2012

Norton Dave said:
I know that the first engine number started at 325001 , so no unusual thing about that except it also stated year of manufacture as 12/1974 . This is what I find strange as all my books state MK3 start of production Feb /1975 . I know also there are some MK2 A "S made in 1975 up to about Febuary . Might need LAB to help on this , Would the date and engine numbers be correct ???

I think perhaps the "beginning of production" date sometimes gets muddled with the new model's "official release" date. As ZFD points out, the date stamp is probably not a totally accurate indication of when a particular machine was built, assuming of course that the entries in the surviving records were recorded accurately.

All three numbers on engine, gearbox and frame certification plate should match, although there is normally an additional non-matching *850*F1xxxxx* serial number stamped on the frame headstock alongside the frame plate. Some mid-'75 Mk3s had matching 6-digit frame numbers with no "F" prefix but that shouldn't apply in this instance.

ZFD said:
Interestingly, amongst the early ones are a bunch of "JPN"s. I know the brochure for the Mk3 shows a JPN Mk3, but I thought they were never built. I have never seen one in the flesh, but then they all seem to have been shipped to the USA and Canada.

Could those Mk3 "JPNs" have been "Blue Stripe" Roadsters?

I know they were not officially known as John Player models but could they have been recorded as such, or is there evidence to suggest they were genuine JPN models?

pete.v · Mar 29, 2012

As with cars and such, production years generally start around October for the next year. A production date of 12/74 would be right on the money.

ZFD · Mar 29, 2012

Could those Mk3 "JPNs" have been "Blue Stripe" Roadsters?

I know they were not officially known as John Player models but could they have been recorded as such, or is there evidence to suggest they were genuine JPN models?

I don't think so, because others at the same time (civilian models, not Interpols!) are down as "white". Everything entered by the same hand, JPNs and "white" bikes intermingling on the same pages. I know of no other Mk3 in white besides Interpols bar the "white with navy stripe blue" ones, so I guess the JPNs were indeed JPNs.

The records are painstakingly done with dates off track, despatch, colour and where to, whilst earlier records (on the microfilms) are often in unreadable hand, smudged or damaged. This is a mint book I have, written clearly and all by the same hand (an original). It also gives the frame numbers which are NOT chronological.

303 fmj · Mar 29, 2012

pvisseriii said:
As with cars and such, production years generally start around October for the next year. A production date of 12/74 would be right on the money.

This is correct I believe; my 75 MK3 is dated 11---74 and my serial number is 3250xx the last numbers are under 40 so probably one of the first days production off the assembly line----assuming they could run at least 40 units per day--5 per hour based on an 8-hour shift--- but then again---they were unionized.

79x100 · Mar 29, 2012

It would be interesting to know if they did build any Mk3 JPNs, and if so, what they did with the rear brake pedal. The European brochure illustration simply has a reversed lever for the gear change but it could be artistic licence.

The US market Mk3 brochure has a view from above of what they call the 'Commando Cafe Racer' but it has a right hand front brake and earlier top yoke so is probably a 2A.

Joe, were these JPNs all shipped to the US ? Maybe they decided not to market them or perhaps component supply was a problem and they never went into series production.

Could you have a look and see if 330556 is in your book ?

dynodave · Mar 29, 2012

LAB
I have borrowed original MKIII JPS commorative(my name)/JPN/blue stripe tank and side covers from our club treasurer/membership director. I even wanted to buy them, but no luck there. So yes they DID make this blue/red stripe paint job on MKIII. I seem to recall having seen several at national rallys over the last 20+ years. The actual name of the later paint job does not bother me a bit since any seasoned commando owner knows the difference from the regular "JPN" cafe. I've never had much desire to own one (cafe)even if cheap.... and certainly not at at what would be a premium commando price.

Who knows if Norton was trying to do a JPS/JPN deal and it fell through and reassigned the paint job name to blue stripe? All in all not that important on a paint job that some people like almost as little as the hirider! Come to think of it I have a hirider that I am painting to JPS commemorative colors so I can have the only "factory original" JPS hirider. :twisted:

On the bike dates, they do seem a bit wishy washy. Could the number have been assigned when the frame was started on the production line and not at the end. The plate would certainly be easier to install on a bare frame.

79x100
For clarification Are you asking if they made the full JPN cafe body work on a MKIII? sorry don't know or recall having seen one.

L.A.B. · Mar 29, 2012

dynodave said:
LAB
I have borrowed original MKIII JPS commorative(my name)/JPN/blue stripe tank and side covers from our club treasurer/membership director. I even wanted to buy them, but no luck there. So yes they DID make this blue/red stripe paint job on MKIII. I seem to recall having seen several at national rallys over the last 20+ years.

Yes, well, it was just an idea, I wasn't questioning whether there were any "Blue stripe" Mk3s or not, only that perhaps there was a chance that some may have been dispatched as "JPN" models, however ZFD thinks not, which is fair enough.

ZFD · Mar 30, 2012

79x100,
330556 is at the start of the second Mk3 Despatch Record book where, unfortunately, the information to where the bike went was not written down. Later in the book it is.

330556 Production Batch# 379B, tested and accepted 16.4.75, packed 17.4.75, despatched from No.2 works 01.5.75.

That is all I am afraid.
Joe

blaisestation · Mar 30, 2012

Hello Joe if and when you have a spare moment, do you perhaps have any records for 317169 ?
thanks in advance
B

79x100 · Mar 30, 2012

ZFD said:
79x100,
330556 is at the start of the second Mk3 Despatch Record book where, unfortunately, the information to where the bike went was not written down. Later in the book it is.

330556 Production Batch# 379B, tested and accepted 16.4.75, packed 17.4.75, despatched from No.2 works 01.5.75.

That is all I am afraid.
Joe

Thanks Joe. It's nice to have the dates confirmed (It has a 4/75 date on the plate). It's more information than I've found over the last thirty years ! I know that it was a UK bike and wasn't registered until March 1976 in Staffordshire and ended up on a 'P' suffix plate. I wrote to the original owner when I first had the bike but only got a 'phone call from his brother who couldn't remember the name of the supplying dealer which would have been interesting.

He told me that the bike had a soft cam and cracked a gearbox shell during the first year so there was no way that his brother would want to talk to anyone about it. :roll:

Joe, just out of curiousity, what does the book say about 325053 ? That is the engine number of the bike photographed for the starter drive picture in the brochure.

79x100 · Mar 30, 2012

dynodave said:
LAB
I have borrowed original MKIII JPS commorative(my name)/JPN/blue stripe tank and side covers from our club treasurer/membership director. I even wanted to buy them, but no luck there. So yes they DID make this blue/red stripe paint job on MKIII. I seem to recall having seen several at national rallys over the last 20+ years. The actual name of the later paint job does not bother me a bit since any seasoned commando owner knows the difference from the regular "JPN" cafe. I've never had much desire to own one (cafe)even if cheap.... and certainly not at at what would be a premium commando price.

Who knows if Norton was trying to do a JPS/JPN deal and it fell through and reassigned the paint job name to blue stripe? All in all not that important on a paint job that some people like almost as little as the hirider! Come to think of it I have a hirider that I am painting to JPS commemorative colors so I can have the only "factory original" JPS hirider. :twisted:

On the bike dates, they do seem a bit wishy washy. Could the number have been assigned when the frame was started on the production line and not at the end. The plate would certainly be easier to install on a bare frame.

79x100
For clarification Are you asking if they made the full JPN cafe body work on a MKIII? sorry don't know or recall having seen one.

Dave, that was indeed what I was asking. The UK / Europe brochure includes a drive-side photo of a left-hand shift John Player Caff Racer so they were certainly at least pretending that they were going to make some.

The white Roadster first appears in the 1974 (US) Mk2 and (UK)Mk2A brochures with different photos for the two markets but both describe it as "New first time blue stripe finish" (the French brochure calls it "Dans un nouveau coloris blanc avec bande bleue" ) but it's quite clear from the photos that both wide and narrow stripes were blue - no sign of any thin red stripe. However, I have seen original Mk2As with the red stripe and I wonder if the double blue was ever produced ? Without the red stripe, there is no hint of a John Player connection.

L.A.B. · Mar 30, 2012

79x100 said:
The white Roadster first appears in the 1974 (US) Mk2 and (UK)Mk2A brochures with different photos for the two markets but both describe it as "New first time blue stripe finish" (the French brochure calls it "Dans un nouveau coloris blanc avec bande bleue" ) but it's quite clear from the photos that both wide and narrow stripes were blue - no sign of any thin red stripe. However, I have seen original Mk2As with the red stripe and I wonder if the double blue was ever produced ? Without the red stripe, there is no hint of a John Player connection.

It's interesting to note that the paint finish is listed as: "Dayglow White, Blue Stripes" for the Roadster tank and panels in the Mk2/2A parts supplement.
The Mk3 part book simply lists it as: "White" but with the same "163" colour code as the 2/2A supplement.

I've always considered the stripes on this Roadster in the '74 magazine ad to be black and I have some original mags with that ad. If the stripes are blue then it's a very dark shade of blue.

MK 3 Engine numbers help needed ??

Norton Dave

dynodave

ZFD

cjandme

L.A.B.

Moderator

pete.v

ZFD

303 fmj

79x100

dynodave

L.A.B.

Moderator

ZFD

blaisestation

79x100

79x100

L.A.B.

Moderator

Similar threads