Low price 961

TonyA said:

The last time I looked at this bike a week or so ago , 13k was the starting bid. Maybe you can buy it now for 12K. ? This was the Dhartwig bike.

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Are you sure? it has some things different or changed, notably the exhaust.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwhartwig/sets/72157651496449231/

Broken link removed

The top one is the Dhartwig bike. Positive. That's the bike you just posted in the link. I had been following it on ebay.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1628634481...m%252F162863448176%26rvr_id%3D0&ul_noapp=true

Update on the ECU. I just received an interesting response from SCS-Delta.

"Hi Ken

Thank you for the email

The ECUs supplied to Norton were specific version of the Typhoon with added functionality for the stepper motor idle control system. The new Delta 400 was designed with Norton in mind and had multi function pins to allow for idle control or other functions - it is a direct swap for the original Norton hardware.

Norton ECUs were locked down when they left us. We could unlock your current hardware, however this was never designed to be easy (so that no one would void their warranty etc). The cost to unlock it is £250+VAT

A brand new Delta 400 is certainly more capable and will allow for additional functionality later if needed. These are £650+VAT

Our CAN-USB (OBD) is £125+VAT

Software is free and available to download from our site."

So my hopes of just wiring up a CAN-USB cable and using the free software (SXTune) to play with the mapping are dashed. Making the cable might still allow me to swap maps, as long as I could get the files for them, and maybe the instructions and software that was given to the dealers. Next step is to make up the cable and see if the SXTune software will work at all with the ECU. It might at least let me look at data, and maybe swap maps, or maybe not. At this point it costs me nothing to give it a try.

If I ever get serious about wanting to make any major changes to the bike, best bet would probably be to just buy the D400 ECU, but for the moment, I just need to do some of the standard upgrades and put some more miles on it. So far, it runs pretty good as is. Richard-7 and his dad are clearly doing a lot of work on fixes and other mods, as are some others, so there might be a lot more options coming in the near future. A big part of my motivation to sort this all out is just annoyance at a manufacturer who deliberately denies owners the resources to work on their own bikes. The original Norton company that I got used to back in the '70s was happy to make all the specialized tools, as well as the parts needed, available for owners to do their own repair and maintenance, as well as modifications.

Ken

lcrken said:

A brand new Delta 400 is certainly more capable

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That’s good digging Ken. Just a shame the end find wasn’t more favourable!

What do you think they mean by ‘capable’ when they said: “A brand new Delta 400 is certainly more capable”?

Do they just me you’d get more opportunity to intervene with it, etc? Or do they mean it would perform better?

Ken,

It’s unfortunate that unlocking the ECU is such a problem, but I’m sure that Norton and other manufacturers do this for more than warranty reasons.
Restricting owner access to the ECU programmable area is probably a regulatory requirement to receive US DOT and EU agencies approval.

It looks like the PC is the last best hope for better tuning.
The one area that the PC can’t do much for is the idle air control.
It would be far better if at least that part of the stock ECU could have been unlocked to improve cold idling.

As the SCS-Delta response stated:

"The ECUs supplied to Norton were specific version of the Typhoon with added functionality for the stepper motor idle control system. The new Delta 400 was designed with Norton in mind and had multi function pins to allow for idle control or other functions.."

I suppose we'll have to wait for an owner with the required hacking talents to gain access to the stock ECU's.

Has anyone in 961 land fitted or thought of fitting a pair of FCR carbs, and getting rid of the ecu, or isn't that practical ?
sam

Well I have thought about it, and I continue to do so!

The more I read about the hassle caused by all these sensors and gizmos, the more I wonder why not just remove all that shite altogether and put on a simple electronic ignition system, with big powerful Dyna coils, and a pair of kick ass FCRs of the right size?!

It seems well accepted that the injector bodies and air box are too small and restrictive anyway, so this swap out would seem to offer multiple benefits.

The main issue appears to be that we need someone clever to lead the way...

So, Ken, how about it...?!?

Zactly what I was thinking Nigel, someone with Ken's ability could surely sort it out, I guess it depends on what if any problems occur on his own bike. I have to say all these minor running/idling issues are the main reason I haven't bought a 961, I just couldn't be bothered with a modern machine that gives me more hassle than my old clunkers.
I still think the bikes look beautiful and wouldn't mind a few running issues, but for a brand new bike to stall/cut out, whatever is just ludicrous, none of the other smaller companies like Triumph /Ducati etc seem to suffer this nonsense .
sam

Indeed. I’d like to know why these issues arrise. Is it cos...

1. Norton just don’t have enough, good enough, engineers to get it right?
When we get answers like “it’s too difficult and expensive” for Norton to supply some simple bolts or screws to use to replace the redundant stock mirrors when fitting the factory supplied fancy bar end mirrors, it makes me wonder how they manage with the genuinely difficult topics associated with designing and manufacturing a motorcycle !

2. Norton are simply “spoiling the ship for a ha’peth of tar” by fitting inferior components? When I get mine I will be looking for the Bosch logos and numbers and will be seriously pissed off if they’re not there!

3. Or is it really because Norton is simply trying to get too much (in terms of emissions compliance) out of an engine that’s fundementally at the edge of its ability to do so?
Harley seem to manage it very well, so I can’t see this being the reason.

So, reason 1 or 2 seem most likely to me.

And this is why I’ll be keeping the Panzer till the New Norton has proved itself ‘fit for purpose’...

trident sam said:

Has anyone in 961 land fitted or thought of fitting a pair of FCR carbs, and getting rid of the ecu, or isn't that practical ?
sam

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Yes, it is possible.

As some may know already, the original Dreer 961 was fitted with twin 39mm Keihin FCRs. That is how Dreer intended to manufacture the machine. Fate intervened, and the Norton Motorsports USA company tanked in 2016 without ever producing a single 961 for sale.

Enter Garner, who buys the Norton name and everything else from Dreer, and company.

Garner has the engine redesigned in the UK for easier manufacturing, and in the process has it converted to EFI to pass EU regulations.

If you search the 961 forum for “the Swindler” you will find that there was an individual who did actually de-evolve his 961 from EFI back to Keihin FCR’s.

It has been done.

The pics I can find of The Swindler show it with big K&N pod filters, but still the stock EFI...

Sure enough, the photos show the standard throttle bodies.
I'll have to look on line to see if I can find the article I read some time back.
The owner tried to resolve the poor running characteristics of the 961 EFI system early on - 2009 or so, he actually swapped it out for a pair of FCR's.

To do something like this would require some very fancy skills.
It would be necessary to cut out the ignition function from the CAN-Bus circuitry, but retain everything else including the ECU to run the remaining electrics.
The ignition could be run using an igniter box from a Hinckley 865 Scrambler, which has a 270 degree crank like the 961.
The 961's crank position sensor could be used as a trigger for the igniter box, and the FCR's tps plugs directing into the igniter box.

EFI is so good when it works, I can't imagine doing away with it.
I think back to the 70s when, in winter our carbureted cars liked to stall at every traffic light for the first 20 minutes of running because they weren't " warmed up' yet.
Now with EFI, cars run perfectly from the first firing, no matter what the ambient temp is. Fuel economy, power and drivability are all greatly improved with the modern fuel and ignition systems.

There has to be a way to sort it.

Jim Comstock has managed to fit fuel injection onto a forty year old engine and make it work well. Surely the Norton 961 system can be made to function properly.

Glen

Screw that Glen... you’ve given me a eureka moment... what the 961 needs is a....

Magneto !!

worntorn said:

Surely the Norton 961 system can be made to function properly.

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Glen,
From your mouth to God's ears.
I'm certain a talented individual can do this.
But it hasn't happen yet.

A PC will help, but hacking the ECU (SC or OMEX) to allow dyno tuners direct access to its features is what's needed.

I wonder if the injector bodies weren't kept a little small because the designers were worried about the durability of the lower end at higher horsepower. I wouldn't think that would be an issue. The crankshaft is essentially two Rotax single cranks mated together with a center bearing. The Rotax single bottom end will last forever in a 60 hp engine, so I would think that the 961 bottom end should be good for at least 120 hp. With a Carrillo rod, the single crank will hold up well for as much as 80 hp, so I can't see any real risk to the 961 crankshaft assembly at any horsepower we could reasonably expect to get. And these numbers are all rear wheel hp, so the hp at the crank would be even more. In any case, I'm sure there's more power available from the usual sort of valve and head work, camshaft valve train mods, and less restrictive exhaust, even with the stock throttle bodies. As Glen has said, you could probably accommodate all that with a Power Commander, and maybe slotting the crankshaft sensor mount for a little timing mod. Still, being able to directly modify the fuel and ignition maps would be even better.

I don't know anything about the Omex ECU, but I would assume Norton have also had it modified to lock out nasty hackers like us.

Ken

Ken,

I think you're right about the crank. It should be safe to about 120HP.
In 2014 Matt Capri was planning two big bore kits for the 961, a 1003 hi compression "clean-up" kit, and a 1100 kit that required a crankcase mod to fit.
He was also working on a hot street roller cam, and big valves.
He knew the 961's insides very well and he was confident the bottom end as designed was stout.
SouthBay Norton is gone now so no hope of hi-performance goodies for the 961.

BritTwit said:

Ken,

I think you're right about the crank. It should be safe to about 120HP.
In 2014 Matt Capri was planning two big bore kits for the 961, a 1003 hi compression "clean-up" kit, and a 1100 kit that required a crankcase mod to fit.
He was also working on a hot street roller cam, and big valves.
He knew the 961's insides very well and he was confident the bottom end as designed was stout.
SouthBay Norton is gone now so no hope of hi-performance goodies for the 961.

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That's too bad. The cylinder looks like there is room for an overbore kit, but I'd have to have one apart to really tell what else it would require. Just out of curiosity, I know it has liners, but are the iron or aluminum with a carbide bore coating?

Ken

lcrken said:

That's too bad. The cylinder looks like there is room for an overbore kit, but I'd have to have one apart to really tell what else it would require. Just out of curiosity, I know it has liners, but are the iron or aluminum with a carbide bore coating?

Ken

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Nikasil. So make sure you use top quality gasoline.

richard-7 said:

Nikasil. So make sure you use top quality gasoline.

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Richard, have the liners always been the same? When the head gasket blew on my 2013 CR I was told that the liners had dropped in the bores causing a gap, and that they were replacing with Nikasil liners (which lead me to believe that I didn't have these previously). The Norton workshop manual that I got with the bike showed the liners with a lip at the top, so I didn't understand how they could drop anyway. Does this make sense?