Let's Screw The Homeowner (For A Change!)...

@ Andy, if you think money going off shore is bad now, its nothing to what it will be if a left version of labour gets in. It’s happened every time. It is well proven that raising taxes above a certain point has a diminishing (even negative) impact on tax revenue as people seek to avoid paying it. And that’s everyone from the labourer working for cash to the mega rich moving abroad (either physically or legally).

I’m not rich unfortunately, so have zero vested interest in defending the rich, but one argument that always intrigued me is the leftist argument that ‘the rich should pay more’...

Do these people not understand how percentages work?

As for a left run economy, comparing things to the Meriden Co-op... seriously? It was a failure from the outset, they never stood a chance. I confess, my intital thought was to compare them to the Bloor era success. But then again, if we look at what the Bloor cartel uber capitalist approach has done to British jobs, they ain‘t much better in that regard are they?

The left vs right argument itself is what is wrong. Both are bad if left unchecked. We need more centralist approaches. We have a century of learning to look back on which tells us that socialist societies just do not work. And socialism killed more people last century than fascism. Yet folk still yearn for it?!

We have a largely capitalist society in the West today precisely because socialism DOES NOT WORK. We have capitalism by default, not by choice. But if capitalism if left unchecked it’s bad too, look how exposed we were recently to massively over extended supply chains that all chased the lowest price... and began in China...
 
It didnt begin in China, it began with those in power chasing cheap labour.

Britainia and the Empire thrived on cheap natural and manual resources found in the New and Third worlds.

America thrived on indentured servitude and slave labor, and then the opression of the black workforce for the 150 years since the Civil War.

All Western economic forces seek cheap labour: post-war Japan, India, Bangladesh, Eastern European countries, and China, etc.

China just happens to be very successful at it, due to its power structure.

But, it started with the powerful in the West, seeking money.
 
EstuaryBoy said:
Just a quick blatt round the internet for UK 'Averages':
'House Price 2020'... £231k
Repayment mortgage £231k (over 30 years)= £1.038k pm
'UK Average wage 2020'.... £1.95k pm
Okay... how accurate ANY of those figures are who knows, but all pulled from reputable websites. But on those figures I would have thought a couple of a similar mindset could get on the ladder? But again, hypothetical world...
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Hmm, I wonder if the housing costs reflect the lower cost of housing in rural areas, while the wage average is pushed up by London etc. levels. Resulting in you being able to afford a house in northern Scotland while working in London perhaps?
The commute would be, shall we say, interesting..... :)
 
SteveBorland said:
Hmm, I wonder if the housing costs reflect the lower cost of housing in rural areas, while the wage average is pushed up by London etc. levels. Resulting in you being able to afford a house in northern Scotland while working in London perhaps?
The commute would be, shall we say, interesting..... :)
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A powerful argument for HS2 then :) !! Or to quote Norman Tebbit: 'On yer bike!'
 
I lived in a small town. But moved to suburbia because that was where the jobs paid a lot more despite the fact that I hated suburbia. You have to go where the money is. You have to. Make your money where the pay is high, leave and retire to where the pay is low and property affordable.
You don't need college. You need a trade and you need to put in the hours. Lots of them.
If you start young and work like a dog, live like an immigrant you can get enough to get started. Most of us don't have that sort of discipline or understanding. This does not apply to people from parents with drive smarts and money. This
is just for the rest of us. Tough? Yes sort of but if you don't do it life will be tough until you die.
 
gortnipper said:
It didnt begin in China, it began with those in power chasing cheap labour.

Britainia and the Empire thrived on cheap natural and manual resources found in the New and Third worlds.

America thrived on indentured servitude and slave labor, and then the opression of the black workforce for the 150 years since the Civil War.

All Western economic forces seek cheap labour: post-war Japan, India, Bangladesh, Eastern European countries, and China, etc.

China just happens to be very successful at it, due to its power structure.

But, it started with the powerful in the West, seeking money.
Click to expand...

That was my point.

The long and complex supply chains driven by uber capitalism results in supply chains that start in China (or elsewhere in the Far East) where they have zero control (or interest?) in the business practices used etc.

Not China’s fault.

Definitely China’s gain and our loss.

In theory, capitalism should be more socialist. A healthy society has a health economy and buys more produce!

But it doesn’t seem to work out like that very often. Too often the big corporations seem to work on the basis of ‘make maximum hay whilst the sun shines and rely on govt bail outs in the bad times’ !
 
I blame, partially, the quarterly profits approach. Add in the ever popular asset stripping and outsourcing. Not to forget government that is about handing out money to its friends AND to voters none of which is sustainable.
The idea of a balanced budget is long gone. If the citizen doesn't control their own debt why do you expect the government will?
As far as I can see all the western governments just print ever more money and if we, the citizen, has savings, it disappears. Thanks for that!
Answer? Don't look at me. I'm banking on dying before the sh_t hits the prop.
 
Onder said:
I lived in a small town. But moved to suburbia because that was where the jobs paid a lot more despite the fact that I hated suburbia. You have to go where the money is. You have to. Make your money where the pay is high, leave and retire to where the pay is low and property affordable.
You don't need college. You need a trade and you need to put in the hours. Lots of them.
If you start young and work like a dog, live like an immigrant you can get enough to get started. Most of us don't have that sort of discipline or understanding. This does not apply to people from parents with drive smarts and money. This
is just for the rest of us. Tough? Yes sort of but if you don't do it life will be tough until you die.
Click to expand...
I can relate to that... In my late 20's bought a new three piece suite.. proviso it HAD to have a comfortable reclining armchair. Why? Because I was working a night shift 'til 2-3am, then home and out again for work at 6am and no way could I crawl out of bed after only 2-3 hours. Add to that helping the wife with her homework and that was most waking hours covered! But, as mentioned elsewhere, you have to keep your eye on the prize.. Short term (!) sacrifice for long term gain. That's if you see life as the long haul, of course..
 
Fast Eddie said:
In theory, capitalism should be more socialist. A healthy society has a health economy and buys more produce!
Click to expand...
And that was America with The New Deal.

And then post-war we got McCarthy, physicians lobbying against "socialized medicine", a super-charged military industrial complex, Viet Nam, Nixon, neocons... I sound positively Revolutionary....LOL

#wallofnakedchoppers
 
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EstuaryBoy said:
I shouldn't go off like a boring old fart, but it does irks me when youngsters I've worked with will think nothing of paying someone else £20 to clean their car, live on takeaway food, THEN tell me I'm 'lucky' I can afford a house!
(Whinge over :) )
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They wont be living long then on staple of takeaway
 
Fast Eddie said:
Well, I don’t wanna say “I told you so” too much, but...

I said at the beginning of all this that you cannot just lock down an entire society and not expect big f***ing problems!

The amount the UK Gov is having to borrow because of lock down is staggering, it’s not just blah, blah folks, it’s unprecedented numbers.

Some folk seemed to think it was about ‘saving lives vs protecting the rich people’s wealth’... now they’re realising that is NOT the case. The rich will usually find a way of profiting, the poor will generally remain looked after to a basic level as they were before, it’s the miserable sods in the middle who are gonna have to pay for this. And for GENERATIONS TO COME!

Make no mistake folks, we are going to have to pay for this thing. And tax revenue is the only way. And with a few million more unemployed and thousands of business no longer contributing, they’re gonna have to take even more, from even fewer. And those who think that just taxing the rich is gonna solve this simply do not grasp the maths, it’ll be masses in the middle, all us home owning, car driving, working people who are gonna pay for this... but tax hikes aren’t the only cost.

A recent report in the UK predicted that lock down could cause up to 200k extra deaths in the UK in coming years. UNICEF are predicting up to 20 million extra ‘preventable deaths’ in African children as a result of wealthy countries cutting back on foreign aid due to lock down induced recession.

Painfully, shockingly, almost criminally, ironic that wealthy countries citizens are marching around with BLM banners whilst this is happening...!

I just hope global leaders have learnt a lesson. Blanket lock downs are not the answer. Sure, have local lock downs, make us wear masks, let’s have social distancing and hand washing and etc. But no more society killing blanket lock downs please....
Nigel ,it might be worse than you suppose...in the Uk deposit accounts receive 0.01 % interest... its never been cheaper for Governments to borrow... Inflation will wipe out Govt debt in the longterm The price is paid not by the whinging young who get really cheap mortages but by those who have savings.
This will work tolerably well unless there is an economic recovery in which case interest rates will rise,and goernment will not be able to pay for its borrowing.. so recession of sorts is now hard wired into the economic model

Worth noting that the UKbill for compensation to uK slave holders was not only eye watering.. it was only paid off in 2015!!! So ironically descendents of slaves have in the UK been paying tax towards the compensation of slave owners.. And whilst not a factor in the BLM per se , surely an outragous state of affairs ,
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People who are comfortable do not rebel. Most of us are just the lobster in the pot as the temperature is increased...we just quietly get killed.
 
“ . . . without “radical action” to raise significant taxation revenues, the UK could be facing years of stagnant growth that would “blight the lives of future generations. . . .”

So growth comes from higher taxes?

Typical leftie logic
 
gortnipper said:
It didnt begin in China, it began with those in power chasing cheap labour.

Britainia and the Empire thrived on cheap natural and manual resources found in the New and Third worlds.

America thrived on indentured servitude and slave labor, and then the opression of the black workforce for the 150 years since the Civil War.

All Western economic forces seek cheap labour: post-war Japan, India, Bangladesh, Eastern European countries, and China, etc.

China just happens to be very successful at it, due to its power structure.

But, it started with the powerful in the West, seeking money.
Click to expand...
This.
 
Fast Eddie said:
@ Andy, if you think money going off shore is bad now, its nothing to what it will be if a left version of labour gets in. It’s happened every time. It is well proven that raising taxes above a certain point has a diminishing (even negative) impact on tax revenue as people seek to avoid paying it. And that’s everyone from the labourer working for cash to the mega rich moving abroad (either physically or legally).

I’m not rich unfortunately, so have zero vested interest in defending the rich, but one argument that always intrigued me is the leftist argument that ‘the rich should pay more’...

Do these people not understand how percentages work?

As for a left run economy, comparing things to the Meriden Co-op... seriously? It was a failure from the outset, they never stood a chance. I confess, my intital thought was to compare them to the Bloor era success. But then again, if we look at what the Bloor cartel uber capitalist approach has done to British jobs, they ain‘t much better in that regard are they?

The left vs right argument itself is what is wrong. Both are bad if left unchecked. We need more centralist approaches. We have a century of learning to look back on which tells us that socialist societies just do not work. And socialism killed more people last century than fascism. Yet folk still yearn for it?!

We have a largely capitalist society in the West today precisely because socialism DOES NOT WORK. We have capitalism by default, not by choice. But if capitalism if left unchecked it’s bad too, look how exposed we were recently to massively over extended supply chains that all chased the lowest price... and began in China...
Click to expand...

@Fast Eddie Thanks for the reply and I'll try and respond on a few points.

I'm not sure about the raising tax/reducing revenue being well proven. What's evidence for that? I understand that avoiding VAT at 20% is sport for some but don't know about hard evidence.

I agree that socialist societies have not worked well. They do not have a good track record!
However, look where capitalism has taken us, as you acknowledge. The incredibly naive support of a single party state in China.

In my view there has to be a change. I agree left vs right is a poor construct but find that my views align more to those of a more caring and co-operative approach as championed by Labour. I did one of those surveys that assess your political views and came out as 75% Green and 25% Labour!
I agree that left and right unchecked are both disastrous. Imho the problem we have now is a result of too much drift to the right.

I also agree that the Meriden co-op was doomed from the start, I was merely referring to the co-operative ethos and approach. There are so few examples and I was making a motorcycling reference.

The way many UK companies are structured the staff are being poorly paid and treated. Even the great capitalist Henry Ford worked out that he needed to pay his staff enough to be able to afford his cars. Hitting the rich with high taxes is not the way forward but paying workers a good wage with good conditions is. Perhaps then there would be fewer, less well-off rich business owners. I think we do need to pay enough in tax for a well funded NHS and social care provision.

As ever we are in wild agreement on many points it's just that my shout would be that CAPITALISM IS NOT WORKING.
I think the idea was that money would 'trickle down' the economy on the back of high profits and liberal controls. Well the only thing that's seems to be trickling down is what is produced when a cow raises its tail!

A more centrist approach by governments would be good but its difficult to see that happening anytime soon. In the UK, Labour under Starmer may move to that position but the Lib Dems are a 'busted flush' after their coalition with Cameron's tories and Boris and co. are showing only a few signs of shifting position. Their handling of coronavirus has been world-beatingly poor.

A bit of another wide ranging rant but it's fun to bat this stuff around.

Got out on my bike a couple of times last week. 150+ miles all running well.
Probably best I stick to bikes!

Andy
 
DevonNorton said:
CAPITALISM IS NOT WORKING.
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I believe, OVER HERE, the problem is not so much "capitalism", as EXTREMELY bloated, inept, out-of-bounds, over-reaching, UNCONSTITUTIONALLY MISBEHAVING GOVERNMENT.

If such a HUGE chunk of the GDP wasn't going to fund the pork-barrels and golden parachutes, a reasonable amount of that would stay in WE, the people's pockets.
 
grandpaul said:
I believe, OVER HERE, the problem is not so much "capitalism", as EXTREMELY bloated, inept, out-of-bounds, over-reaching, UNCONSTITUTIONALLY MISBEHAVING GOVERNMENT.

If such a HUGE chunk of the GDP wasn't going to fund the pork-barrels and golden parachutes, a reasonable amount of that would stay in WE, the people's pockets.
Click to expand...

Yes, need to cut social security and medicare and subsidies to farmers and...
 
DevonNorton said:
@Fast Eddie Thanks for the reply and I'll try and respond on a few points.

I'm not sure about the raising tax/reducing revenue being well proven. What's evidence for that? I understand that avoiding VAT at 20% is sport for some but don't know about hard evidence.

I agree that socialist societies have not worked well. They do not have a good track record!
However, look where capitalism has taken us, as you acknowledge. The incredibly naive support of a single party state in China.

In my view there has to be a change. I agree left vs right is a poor construct but find that my views align more to those of a more caring and co-operative approach as championed by Labour. I did one of those surveys that assess your political views and came out as 75% Green and 25% Labour!
I agree that left and right unchecked are both disastrous. Imho the problem we have now is a result of too much drift to the right.

I also agree that the Meriden co-op was doomed from the start, I was merely referring to the co-operative ethos and approach. There are so few examples and I was making a motorcycling reference.

The way many UK companies are structured the staff are being poorly paid and treated. Even the great capitalist Henry Ford worked out that he needed to pay his staff enough to be able to afford his cars. Hitting the rich with high taxes is not the way forward but paying workers a good wage with good conditions is. Perhaps then there would be fewer, less well-off rich business owners. I think we do need to pay enough in tax for a well funded NHS and social care provision.

As ever we are in wild agreement on many points it's just that my shout would be that CAPITALISM IS NOT WORKING.
I think the idea was that money would 'trickle down' the economy on the back of high profits and liberal controls. Well the only thing that's seems to be trickling down is what is produced when a cow raises its tail!

A more centrist approach by governments would be good but its difficult to see that happening anytime soon. In the UK, Labour under Starmer may move to that position but the Lib Dems are a 'busted flush' after their coalition with Cameron's tories and Boris and co. are showing only a few signs of shifting position. Their handling of coronavirus has been world-beatingly poor.

A bit of another wide ranging rant but it's fun to bat this stuff around.

Got out on my bike a couple of times last week. 150+ miles all running well.
Probably best I stick to bikes!

Andy
Click to expand...

Andy, capitalism is a bit like democracy... it’s a flawed system, but so far, it has proven to be the least flawed of any alternatives !

Ref tax, it’s well proven and documented, but I’m not talking about VAT, I’m talking about income tax and corporation tax.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Andy, capitalism is a bit like democracy... it’s a flawed system, but so far, it has proven to be the least flawed of any alternatives !
Click to expand...

Capitalism merely exported the slave labor, the wars etc...

It's got loads of flaws, we just don't have to confront them ourselves like we would under different economic/societal ordering.
 
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