ISOs or rose joints to control side to side movement?
- Thread starter Jeandr
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Ugh, I'm trying to share what Peel delivers and proves Commandos
as ultimate road tool ever created. I mostly talk about the handling
extremes going around turns long or decreasing radius as that's what
most seek in modifications and is the buggaboo of racers.
BUT rear link also tames the end swapping tendency on maximum braking.
I have to be careful on moderns not to tip over in practice or emergency.
I'm not yet good enough to ride a stoppie, I may never be.
On Peel I tried for half a year to stoppie but gave it up as
only two things are possible on 'long', low Commando, either
pilot thrown right over the bars or front tire locks up to slide
straight ahead. I tried on down hills too, same thing as level,
rear just lifts out of contact, so swing out must be resisted by locked
arms and trunk-pelvic muscles to stay in line. Its not easy and rather
scary to do and watch, having a few events of bikers running
up to me screaming I'm riding a stationary front tire half way across
our village square test pad. Like I didn't know > as it looked
so natural and inline, yet gritting teeth aware of risks to find out.
I've got camera now so video of Peel getting slower faster than
others is in the plans.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1259882 ... 1179npPViI
To hop on my suspension modified fat race tire'd SV650
after a flat on Ms Peel is dam dangerous just lulling along
in commutes to work but still going by the feel of Ms Peel mild
cruise handling ease.
SV pops small surprise wheelies on hills and surprise stoppies
before crests and blinds. Pahsaw a corner cripple sewing
machine ho hum road appliance short ride only convenience.
I put '01 Ninja on my head at 120 mph going by the Commando
leap forward sense instead of surprise hesitation of acceleration
into a wheelie. Found out in real life that the high horse
power bikes can't ever use 1/3 their power when leaned
or trying to accelerate to catch 750 Peel below 90-100 mph.
The poor things just grab air or spin out of control. Pashaw.
To Peel a wide spaced cross up slide seen in flat trackers or
race stars is just a ruined turn I got too scared to keep upping the
loads so **8REDUCE** them fast - even to hanging off like racers,
knowing full well I wimped out to save me or bike or strangers.
Modern low and forward mass bias with pilots hanging off
at mild leans, computers cutting back peaky power
are not for faster ways around to me, just ways to prevent
crashing while allowing a bit more corner speed before crashing.
Teeeheee, reducing rear mass loading onto the front don't make
for good corner hook up out of there.
So what would you all ride to embarrass Ducati 1198 or Aprilla V4
or BMW SR1000 at Barbara's technical course or worn out canyon
twisties? I'm working up for an elite specials show down shoot out to
settle pecking order - video and data logging and excited magazine
staff, frustrated or injured pilots and bikes included.
I wouldn't be so blunt if I were talking just neck and
neck corner contests, he-he-eh. What I see as worthy competition
are Race Karts in parking lot slaloms or 4 wd drive 1000 hp
Pikes Peak rally cars.
I choose my obsolete Flabbergastingly Fabulous Flying Carpet!
With big block blown power to keep wild turns exciting over
the ton.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2515864 ... 1179rvtCJF
hobot, 58.7 now, but may be 60 yr young by then.
as ultimate road tool ever created. I mostly talk about the handling
extremes going around turns long or decreasing radius as that's what
most seek in modifications and is the buggaboo of racers.
BUT rear link also tames the end swapping tendency on maximum braking.
I have to be careful on moderns not to tip over in practice or emergency.
I'm not yet good enough to ride a stoppie, I may never be.
On Peel I tried for half a year to stoppie but gave it up as
only two things are possible on 'long', low Commando, either
pilot thrown right over the bars or front tire locks up to slide
straight ahead. I tried on down hills too, same thing as level,
rear just lifts out of contact, so swing out must be resisted by locked
arms and trunk-pelvic muscles to stay in line. Its not easy and rather
scary to do and watch, having a few events of bikers running
up to me screaming I'm riding a stationary front tire half way across
our village square test pad. Like I didn't know > as it looked
so natural and inline, yet gritting teeth aware of risks to find out.
I've got camera now so video of Peel getting slower faster than
others is in the plans.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1259882 ... 1179npPViI
To hop on my suspension modified fat race tire'd SV650
after a flat on Ms Peel is dam dangerous just lulling along
in commutes to work but still going by the feel of Ms Peel mild
cruise handling ease.
SV pops small surprise wheelies on hills and surprise stoppies
before crests and blinds. Pahsaw a corner cripple sewing
machine ho hum road appliance short ride only convenience.
I put '01 Ninja on my head at 120 mph going by the Commando
leap forward sense instead of surprise hesitation of acceleration
into a wheelie. Found out in real life that the high horse
power bikes can't ever use 1/3 their power when leaned
or trying to accelerate to catch 750 Peel below 90-100 mph.
The poor things just grab air or spin out of control. Pashaw.
To Peel a wide spaced cross up slide seen in flat trackers or
race stars is just a ruined turn I got too scared to keep upping the
loads so **8REDUCE** them fast - even to hanging off like racers,
knowing full well I wimped out to save me or bike or strangers.
Modern low and forward mass bias with pilots hanging off
at mild leans, computers cutting back peaky power
are not for faster ways around to me, just ways to prevent
crashing while allowing a bit more corner speed before crashing.
Teeeheee, reducing rear mass loading onto the front don't make
for good corner hook up out of there.
So what would you all ride to embarrass Ducati 1198 or Aprilla V4
or BMW SR1000 at Barbara's technical course or worn out canyon
twisties? I'm working up for an elite specials show down shoot out to
settle pecking order - video and data logging and excited magazine
staff, frustrated or injured pilots and bikes included.
I wouldn't be so blunt if I were talking just neck and
neck corner contests, he-he-eh. What I see as worthy competition
are Race Karts in parking lot slaloms or 4 wd drive 1000 hp
Pikes Peak rally cars.
I choose my obsolete Flabbergastingly Fabulous Flying Carpet!
With big block blown power to keep wild turns exciting over
the ton.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2515864 ... 1179rvtCJF
hobot, 58.7 now, but may be 60 yr young by then.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Oh yeah another big advantage I found once rump rod isolastic controlled,
The power pulse traction dampening of the isolastic power train allows
lots more power to hook on loose stuff or in far over leans.
Much as I love to skip, drift, slide Ms Peel, except on THE Gravel
I have to over do entry speed and excessive leans on HI power
to get her to break loose. GOT IT, I have to on purpose
go in fast and harsh enough to crash other bikes or nothing exciting
happens at all just run out of power to do it even faster.
So what if I was looking over shoulder to watch deer I just missed
and 35 mph decrease'r corner coming up at 80 mph, just lean er with
power on for extra delicious press into seat down to tire patches.
Factory Commando would have wobbled and tank slapped
over the banked lip of road. I know from trying it enough
to never ever attempt to press un-tamed Commando much.
So what ever you think is harsh and handy turning on un-linked
Commando wouldn't stand a chance against even my SV650
with stock engine, let alone real race set up moderns.
I don't think the solid chassis vintage racers have any
more advantage than other too rigid ring resonance bikes,
but don't know for sure, yet.
i am besides myself at the handling and comfort and ease
and power handling transformation by tri-links,
try a rump rod and helpers to see why.
hobot
The power pulse traction dampening of the isolastic power train allows
lots more power to hook on loose stuff or in far over leans.
Much as I love to skip, drift, slide Ms Peel, except on THE Gravel
I have to over do entry speed and excessive leans on HI power
to get her to break loose. GOT IT, I have to on purpose
go in fast and harsh enough to crash other bikes or nothing exciting
happens at all just run out of power to do it even faster.
So what if I was looking over shoulder to watch deer I just missed
and 35 mph decrease'r corner coming up at 80 mph, just lean er with
power on for extra delicious press into seat down to tire patches.
Factory Commando would have wobbled and tank slapped
over the banked lip of road. I know from trying it enough
to never ever attempt to press un-tamed Commando much.
So what ever you think is harsh and handy turning on un-linked
Commando wouldn't stand a chance against even my SV650
with stock engine, let alone real race set up moderns.
I don't think the solid chassis vintage racers have any
more advantage than other too rigid ring resonance bikes,
but don't know for sure, yet.
i am besides myself at the handling and comfort and ease
and power handling transformation by tri-links,
try a rump rod and helpers to see why.
hobot
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2008
- Messages
- 2,585
Tintin said:I would be a Watt linkage if you would use the cradle to control the movement of a point on the cradle to force a body attached to it onto a certain (almost linear) path. You are not doing this, are you? The aim is to control the cradle.
Take a look at this animation, maybe it's clearer then why a Watt linkage is one step further than what is happening on a rodded Commando:
Do you see the rotation of the cradle when the point is still on its (almost) linear path?
Tim
I can see with the animation that long range linear up and down motion can't be expected with links and rods, but for the amount of deflection we are expecting on a Commando which is probably no more than 1/2" the rods and links would be in a fairly linear range would they not ?
Jean
PS That girl with the notepad in the HD ad really looks like she knows a LOT about these things, maybe we should ask her :mrgreen:
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2009
- Messages
- 607
Jeandr said:
Yes, the movement is far smaller than to notice the effects of the rods even if you mix isos and rods - especially as the front iso is supported by these two flimsy downrails and I agree with Bob that this flexibility makes it pretty much neutral whether you run a rod or an iso. If you only run rods you don't really care anymore because you would never notice a relatively small lateral movement anyway.
And if you place the links on the same side of the con rod (aka the cradle) the turning motion is smaller (but the Watt idea of controlling a single point is no langer given - that's why I'm a bit allergic to Hobot's constant mentioning of it....)
Tim
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2008
- Messages
- 2,585
Tintin said:
Seeing the animation and thinking the cradle would be subjected to such a motion, I think it would be better to use three links of the same length, all anchored in a single plane on the same side of the frame. Such a setup would work fairly well don't you think? Watts linkages are more common in suspensions aren't they? In suspension systems, they are dealing with much more amplitude than what a vibrating engine can deliver so as you say, it is probably a moot point of going fully with links or using a mix of ISOs and links.
Jean
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Tim,
Allergies are a dose related phenomena and in Commandos the
cradle don't move enough to enter the tipping of figure 8 phase of
Peel's Watt's like geometry. If you want to stay stuck in car and truck
range of suspension concepts oh well. Believe me and Bob or
not, its proven to work, the why and where fores can be
debated to kingdom come but I for one am going all out
to take fuller advantage of the insane grip and nuetral
comfortable easy handling that just gets easier and funner the
looser the tires get till exactly like skiing on sharpened edges.
This is another reason I've so much disdain for modern wonder
bike - they can't take much hi PSI in tires, as can't absorb the
springing firmness, but best precise feel I ever had on Peel
was mid 50 PSI front and back, only hated the jarring shocks
on THE G to get in and out. On board air will allow adjusting.
The main deal with the un-tamed isolastic set up is road
loads on rear patch lever to the front iso to slap it
side to side, which then wiggles forks which then
wobbles line of drive and can escalate into terror.
I suspect that I can feel the front mount tabs also begin to twist
the down tubes into springing torsion bars.
I'm not at engineer level to reason all of Peels phenomena out,
but something special is going on besides just not slapping
the front forks and pilot silly.
I do seek some concepts concerning taking a turn so leaned
sharp that any more counter steering points front too far out
of line of inward curve so bike either starts to wobble
on its vertical CoG or front just lets go into a low side.
What I feel is forts pulling to outside to twist stem/spine
one way, while rear pulls to inside of turn and twists
shock mounts and spine the other way. At some point
the steel spring back beats the tire grip for splat.
On un-tamed isolastics this begins onset of the hinged
effect, on my rigid modern the tires judder and staccato
skip just before it springs frame into loss of control so
I back off in either vintage or moderns before flying down.
On Peel just as she seems about to be dragged down
into low side by front - I can give more power and flip
forks into straight steer which then trys to lift bike
against the rear tire slight spin/skip/drift into a low side.
I can easy feel the bars/stem twisting one way and saddle/pegs
the other, but no judder no fight back no nothing -
till I let off for the single rubber band relaxed un-wind.
Let offs o power and fork control brings on the harshest
fastest G loads Peel can deliver, like a boat flipping
boom in a tack. Way faster than I could begin to react.
I call these turns Sling Shots or Ricochet Rabbits.
** I don't know**, but have a sense that my compliant wimpy
front link allows this twist tolerance more that robust mounts
like the rear and certainly better than elite rigids.
I ignore the top steady as iso doughnuts spacing and links above
and below the iso mounts hold power unit it quite well enough no
binding on nothing I can feel.
So how should a frame bend-twist to take front and rear
tire conflicts out of the equation. Seems to only need
a silly mm or two, same as fork motion at speed?
hobot
Allergies are a dose related phenomena and in Commandos the
cradle don't move enough to enter the tipping of figure 8 phase of
Peel's Watt's like geometry. If you want to stay stuck in car and truck
range of suspension concepts oh well. Believe me and Bob or
not, its proven to work, the why and where fores can be
debated to kingdom come but I for one am going all out
to take fuller advantage of the insane grip and nuetral
comfortable easy handling that just gets easier and funner the
looser the tires get till exactly like skiing on sharpened edges.
This is another reason I've so much disdain for modern wonder
bike - they can't take much hi PSI in tires, as can't absorb the
springing firmness, but best precise feel I ever had on Peel
was mid 50 PSI front and back, only hated the jarring shocks
on THE G to get in and out. On board air will allow adjusting.
The main deal with the un-tamed isolastic set up is road
loads on rear patch lever to the front iso to slap it
side to side, which then wiggles forks which then
wobbles line of drive and can escalate into terror.
I suspect that I can feel the front mount tabs also begin to twist
the down tubes into springing torsion bars.
I'm not at engineer level to reason all of Peels phenomena out,
but something special is going on besides just not slapping
the front forks and pilot silly.
I do seek some concepts concerning taking a turn so leaned
sharp that any more counter steering points front too far out
of line of inward curve so bike either starts to wobble
on its vertical CoG or front just lets go into a low side.
What I feel is forts pulling to outside to twist stem/spine
one way, while rear pulls to inside of turn and twists
shock mounts and spine the other way. At some point
the steel spring back beats the tire grip for splat.
On un-tamed isolastics this begins onset of the hinged
effect, on my rigid modern the tires judder and staccato
skip just before it springs frame into loss of control so
I back off in either vintage or moderns before flying down.
On Peel just as she seems about to be dragged down
into low side by front - I can give more power and flip
forks into straight steer which then trys to lift bike
against the rear tire slight spin/skip/drift into a low side.
I can easy feel the bars/stem twisting one way and saddle/pegs
the other, but no judder no fight back no nothing -
till I let off for the single rubber band relaxed un-wind.
Let offs o power and fork control brings on the harshest
fastest G loads Peel can deliver, like a boat flipping
boom in a tack. Way faster than I could begin to react.
I call these turns Sling Shots or Ricochet Rabbits.
** I don't know**, but have a sense that my compliant wimpy
front link allows this twist tolerance more that robust mounts
like the rear and certainly better than elite rigids.
I ignore the top steady as iso doughnuts spacing and links above
and below the iso mounts hold power unit it quite well enough no
binding on nothing I can feel.
So how should a frame bend-twist to take front and rear
tire conflicts out of the equation. Seems to only need
a silly mm or two, same as fork motion at speed?
hobot
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
I abhor stoppie's when just trying to STOP!
But I Must KNOW what a bike and I can or can not do.
One way I know if I'm up to fast road play is how hard I'm
willing or able that day to nail the brake to maximum.
Takes all fantasy of flight out for reality of my reflexes
and bike limits.
On that note, I must be feeling my oats and have perfect
conditions for me to convince self to ride my Suzuki
beginners girls bike, as takes so much effort to operate
and stay on toes d/t limited handling envelope
compared to my Commando's, that I always get a lift
from even if I start out draggy. Linked Peel most
but plain Trixie not far behind in ease to sanely ride.
When feeling fine to start and squealing front tire on down
hills is fun, then hehe, HEY Watch This.
You must understand I'm living on borrowed time,
been over more than one edge.
Yet healthier than I've ever been, so ain't going to
miss out on extreme living when half a chance to
get away with it. Peel sends me like nothing else.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is - are the ones who have gone over.
Hunter S. Thompson
But I Must KNOW what a bike and I can or can not do.
One way I know if I'm up to fast road play is how hard I'm
willing or able that day to nail the brake
Takes all fantasy of flight out for reality of my reflexes
and bike limits.
On that note, I must be feeling my oats and have perfect
conditions for me to convince self to ride my Suzuki
beginners girls bike, as takes so much effort to operate
and stay on toes d/t limited handling envelope
compared to my Commando's, that I always get a lift
from even if I start out draggy. Linked Peel most
but plain Trixie not far behind in ease to sanely ride.
When feeling fine to start and squealing front tire on down
hills is fun, then hehe, HEY Watch This.
You must understand I'm living on borrowed time,
been over more than one edge.
Yet healthier than I've ever been, so ain't going to
miss out on extreme living when half a chance to
get away with it. Peel sends me like nothing else.
The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is - are the ones who have gone over.
Hunter S. Thompson
grandpaul
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2008
- Messages
- 13,265
hobot said:
I have much more fun exploring MY limits than attemting to determine a bikes ABSOLUTE limits. My reasoning is that if I happen to exceed those limits, disaster may follow. Life is hard enough without throwing in too many disasters. Believe me, I can keep up with most of the above-average pack without pushing dangerous limits; I just ease off the loud switch a little bit.
That also explains why my short racing career features no wrecks and no 1st place finishes (off in the kitty litter once, then right back on the track, and a best result of 2nd place). There is nothing to gain but a 4" x 6" piece of particle board with a plastic plaque affixed to it, so DEFINITELY not worth the possibility of being maimed for life, or becoming less useful than a vegetable.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
I'm so glad we have lived this far and still functional to aspire for more.
Racing and plain motorcycle riding is littered with death and maiming.
My firm rule is never to ride to ever get scared. Yet I know that
Fate IS The Hunter. I've had half dozen life death close calls just
tooling in and out of my two rut driveway. Deer off bluffs, over
fences or trying full speed to beat me before my final stop on
my garage pad. My drive way is where I leaned to ride Peel on 'canyon'
walls, when tractor popped around a rock face with its 3 front hay
bale spears lowered to groin and chest level. Phase 3 to 5
steering practice imprinted in my bones & spinal computer is only action
that saved me while going 25 mph.
BTW do ya know when
a cycle goes from vertical to almost horizontal its like landing
off a ledge that bottoms suspension and pilot spine with hard jolt.
Anyone who doesn't think hard about life-death decision to
even get on any cycle is in deluded illusion of risk no matter
how mature and careful they are.
To repeat with above in mine - most important and safe improvement
to a Commando is the rear linkage second only to never riding.
I've learned that motorcycles can't brake nearly as well as they
can SPIKE G's to maneuver - that is now my first reflex.
Crisis events have caused a severe instant burn reflex-reaction
in my LH palm > if I grab brake first over throttle and fork
action.
The full linkage allows safe easy handling beyond what racers
can get away with on most elite bikes in the world.
If ya don't know what that means to riding life joys and
increased chances with Fate, then ya don't know what ya
is missing out on.
hobot
Racing and plain motorcycle riding is littered with death and maiming.
My firm rule is never to ride to ever get scared. Yet I know that
Fate IS The Hunter. I've had half dozen life death close calls just
tooling in and out of my two rut driveway. Deer off bluffs, over
fences or trying full speed to beat me before my final stop on
my garage pad. My drive way is where I leaned to ride Peel on 'canyon'
walls, when tractor popped around a rock face with its 3 front hay
bale spears lowered to groin and chest level. Phase 3 to 5
steering practice imprinted in my bones & spinal computer is only action
that saved me while going 25 mph.
BTW do ya know when
a cycle goes from vertical to almost horizontal its like landing
off a ledge that bottoms suspension and pilot spine with hard jolt.
Anyone who doesn't think hard about life-death decision to
even get on any cycle is in deluded illusion of risk no matter
how mature and careful they are.
To repeat with above in mine - most important and safe improvement
to a Commando is the rear linkage second only to never riding.
I've learned that motorcycles can't brake nearly as well as they
can SPIKE G's to maneuver - that is now my first reflex.
Crisis events have caused a severe instant burn reflex-reaction
in my LH palm > if I grab brake first over throttle and fork
action.
The full linkage allows safe easy handling beyond what racers
can get away with on most elite bikes in the world.
If ya don't know what that means to riding life joys and
increased chances with Fate, then ya don't know what ya
is missing out on.
hobot
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