Is it worth going from points to an electronic ignition system?

More cowbell

You know when I made the switch to EI 2 years ago I didn't know squat about them.... still don't really. Some are just far too complex for someone looking for a simple way to go. The Vape Wassel I went with was as simple as it gets and has done very well fulfilling more than my highest expectation. Trouble free to date, seems to deliver about the same performance, works decently when voltage is a bit low.... I can't complain, but I don't expect race track performance either..... just near good 50 year old slightly pampered Commando which allows me to punch her good every now and then.

I fitted EI because of the 20 BHP at the wheel gain i got...then i woke up!!
Fir me it was the ease of maintenance, & no more gapping points or having to check the ignition timing

Can you still buy good quality points, condensers and spares for the mechanical auto advance?

I have nothing against Boyer, but I get what folks say about the lazy "One fits all" advance curve. End of the day I think it depends what you want out of your bike.

Anybody tried the Elektronik Sachse ? I have one on my Morini and it's great. The Norton versions comes with with 3 or 9 easily changeable advance curves., so there surely must be something close to the factory curve.

Ironically, it's fairly easy to adjust a mechanical AAU ignition curve as opposed to being impossible on a non-programmable EI. Adjusting the curve was common stuff back in the day, using various springs/spacers/counterweights to adjust the curve. Still used in high performance engines builds - distributers with electronic trigger in place of points but mechanical advance.

MexicoMike said:

"Points don't just fail in the middle of nowhere"

Yep, there's that! And heck, you might get an additional 1/4HP or so from the points over EI on our 60 (advertised) HP motors! Here's an old article re that:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-9812-ignition-performance-test/

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I think if I had a road bike, I would prefer points. If an EI fails, there is usually little you can do to get going again. But magnetos were no better.

MexicoMike said:

Ironically, it's fairly easy to adjust a mechanical AAU ignition curve as opposed to being impossible on a non-programmable EI. Adjusting the curve was common stuff back in the day, using various springs/spacers/counterweights to adjust the curve. Still used in high performance engines builds - distributers with electronic trigger in place of points but mechanical advance.

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You are a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

Installed a Rita in '83 and have never regretted it.

"You are a better man than I am, Gunga Din."

Well, not really! If it was hard, I couldn't do it! The only thing you normally do is adjust the maximum advance point and the rate at which the weights "open." On most 4 stroke naturally aspirated engines the max advance works well if all in by 3000-3200 RPM. So it's just a matter of the spring tension on the weights and, if necessary, an insert in the weight slot or different set of weights to adjust the distributer's internal maximum advance. Most mechanical advance performance distributers have sets of springs/inserts/weights available to play with!

Contrary to what seems intuitive, you generally do not want increased lead (ignition advance) above 3000-3500k RPM. The action of the (4-stroke) engine and the physics of the fuel/air mixture being pulled into the cylinder essentially adjusts the "advance" due to the effect of cylinder filling on the fuel burn. The more compressed the mixture, the quicker the flame front moves. The higher the RPM, the more dynamic compression exists and the actual burning of the mixture is "advanced" automatically within the cylinder. So basically, you want the ignition system to provide full advance of the mechanical aspect of generating the spark at around 3K RPM while the laws of physics within the engine takes care of itself above that.

Of course, on the street you want ignition advance to change based on load as well as RPM which is the reason that vacuum advance was invented.

This added a minute later... The above applies only to conventional engines. I have no idea re the subject of ignition timing when applied to modern computer-controlled engines with variable valve timing, variable intake volume, variable exhaust volume, and sensors all over the place.

I last used a bike with points etc. over 30 years ago and am really out of my depth fiddling with them these days ( like I was back then too).

Just recently I’ve added a lot of bits and pieces to my ’74 850 to recommission it for use. Along with a podtronics solid state rectifier, to get rid of the zener diode and finned rectifier, I have just added Pazon Surefire E.I. along with a CNW ignition coil.

What a simple job, no condenser, no ballast resistor, no coils, no capacitor, with all of those removed along with the associated wiring I installed the power unit securely. Then ran the wiring in place of the previous stuff, the rotor slid on nicely, I added the trigger unit and timed it by mark 1 eyeball.

It works, and that’s all I need to know. If it should fail out on a run then I’ve got recovery to come and take me home.

Points (ha!) to ponder (based on the author's experiences and overly opinionated opinions):

1. Is your AAU in good shape? A lot of times, these are worn due to time and poor cam chain tension. Consider both of these before doing anything.

2. Other than point 1., have you had good luck with points? I know plenty of folks still running them and are very happy that way.

3. Are all of your other ignition components in good shape? Is it more expensive to put in new parts or go EI?

4. Knowing what I know today, if you are hard over on going to an EI, I would not recommend a Boyer. The technology in the latest Boyer is based on all of the legacy systems back to the '70's, and is more what I would call 'solid state' rather than a 'electronic' device. It also does not give full advance until 5000 RPM, which will leave you running with retarded timing at normal cruising speed.

5. None of the later versions of the Boyer are what I would call ideal. I found that the Mk 3 actually had better performance than the Mk4 at "cruising speed" (3-4500 rpm) than the MK 4. The so-called improvements with the Mk 4 are better performance at lower battery voltage (good for e-start bikes) and allegedly, less initial timing at low RPM's to prevent kick-back while starting. My brain says that the advance curve is overall not as steep as the Mk3 unit and therefore, runs even more retarded at 3-4500 RPM's (once again, and opinion, not a fact).

6. The nature of the Boyer cam pickup means that the low speed spark initiation can be a bit erratic, leading to poor idling qualities and possibly stalling during a throttle dump when stopping. I had to compensate by setting the idle a little engine speed higher than I liked to prevent stalling. When the bike was fully warmed up, this idle speed would increase even more

7. I recently switched over to a Tri-spark EI, and I have to say, big improvement. Because it is a fully digital device, spark reliability at all engine speeds is greatly improved. Full advance is at 3500, so midrange power feels much stronger. Idle characteristics are near perfect. And installation is even easier than the Boyer (everything fits in the points cover). The only downside is the cost of admission, but the performance increase well out weighs this fact.

Bottom line - and this is just my opinion - don't buy a Boyer.

FWIW

Edit: Another opinion of mine - toss the Podronics, put the rectifier and zener back in. Podronics is far from an efficient device (robs power - lower charging voltage), creates a parasitic power draw when sitting, and generates a ton of electrical noise - as me how I know.

MexicoMike said:

Quite right! Points/AAU require periodic maintenance. In addition to adjusting/replacing points/condensor, you must clean/lube the AAU mechanism to ensure it works correctly. An EI eliminates that maintenance.

HOWEVER, a properly tuned/maintained points/AAU ignition will outperform many (not all) of the EI's simply because it has a superior advance curve for the engine. Most of the current EI's don't hit max advance until 5000 RPM; the OEM system is at max advance at 3000 so you have more midrange response with the points/AAU IF properly set and maintained. Also, points can generally operate at lower system voltages than EIs and they are unaffected by electromagnetic interference, etc.

But it all comes down to what you are comfortable with. Nowadays, most folks don't care for the maintenance involved with points/AAU.

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Altair advance curve is all-in at 3000 RPM:

Even more cow bell.

As true as all the spring and weights mechanical advance tuning stuff is, sure seems to me that the gain would be minimal on a 60HP stock Norton engine with little Amal carburetors on it. As far as I can tell, you have to spend some serious money on the engine if you want to make any power with a Norton. The cheap EI products have a useful enough ignition curve for street bike performance. I would not go back to mechanical Lucas AAU, points, and oil filled coils unless I was building a concourse trailer queen Norton. Just me though.

My Boyer black box and TriSpark MOSFET reg/rect are behind the battery box cover mounted on what is essentially an aluminum chassis ground plane, and not out in the open getting a lot of air. The battery box is not fully enclosed though, so those parts get some ventilation. Speedometer was on 00000.0 when I installed the Boyer on my Norton, and it says 7431.3. All those miles are on the street without black box ignition failure. The Norton was not ridden that much though, so not a great example, but I don't worry about it. When it fails I'll call triple A and ask for a motorcycle trailer.

My ears are still ringing from the screaming on the previous page.

I'm waiting for the back marker DNF race track torque commentary.

Derek Wilson said:

Edit: Another opinion of mine - toss the Podronics, put the rectifier and zener back in. Podronics is far from an efficient device (robs power - lower charging voltage), creates a parasitic power draw when sitting, and generates a ton of electrical noise - as me how I know.

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Yes, the Zener causes no voltage drop until it conducts, so should help charging at low rpm. There are doubts about accurate 14V Zener voltage in many cases though.

I am a bit funny about old bikes. I hate drum brakes, but the disc on the Mk3 Commando does not look right. Nor does the Scitsu tachos which are used on many classic race bikes.One of my younger mates once said 'at least your bike looks right'. It only looks the ways it does, because it could not have been built in any other way. If I ever take it to a race circuit, the young guys usually go all all over it. I have seen photos of Commandos with huge discs and six pot calipers. I would never do that, even if it was more effective. The Boyer on my Seeley 850 is what was used back in the era. It delivers fixed timing, but because I use methanol fuel, I have more margin for error than if I used petrol. When you jet lean enough, it does make a difference.
I set the ignition timing, cam timing and exhaust system first - then jet to them

JimNH said:

Altair advance curve is all-in at 3000 RPM:

Altair Triumph/Bsa/Norton Twin Ignition System :: Altair Ignitions :: Products :: Pazon Ignitions Limited

Altair Triumph/Bsa/Norton Unit Twin 12 volt, high-performance ignition system.12 volt electrics (positive or negative ground).Suitable for road-going, competition or highly tuned machines.Electric or kick start. Overview of Digital & Analogue Ignition Systems. Classic bike & car electronic...

www.pazon.com

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Rather than replace the sloppy stock AAU when it was time, I went with the Pazon Altair. My primary reason for this unit was the idle stabilization circuit. The single Mikuni had already helped a bunch from an earlier "upgrade" over the twin Amals. What I found was that the mid-range torque was noticeably up over stock. I don't think it was psychosomatic, as I wasn't anticipating improved performance out of the EI. It idles so much better that I'm considering putting the stock worn-out twin Amals back on just to see how it does.

Triton Thrasher said:

Yes, the Zener causes no voltage drop until it conducts, so should help charging at low rpm. There are doubts about accurate 14V Zener voltage in many cases though.

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That is why I never offer "correct answers", only opinions

Schwany said:

Snip........


Off topic:
Do you have a video or know of a video with good audio in which I could hear a running Norton engine that failed because of EI timing shortly after the video was shot?

And what does pinging on a Norton engine sound like?

Mine sounds like it has a nest of wrens chirping and a garden gnome using a hammer in it most of the time. Why it still runs is a mystery.

On topic for the OP:
Hanging on to nostalgic ignition technology is good for restoration projects.

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No.

Like "marbles in a steel coffee can being shaken"