Future of British motorcycle industry

wakeup said:

I was repeating what I was told by someone who worked at Woolwich from the late 1930s until Woolwich was closed in the late 60s. Going by your response we both agree about the painting/enamelling anyway. I didn't mention any timescale. So Sunbeams had a pre industrial revolution metal painting process?

I don't think I mentioned Norton (Burman) gearboxes at any stage. I was talking about AJS/Matchless gearboxes up to the early 50s, when apparently Norton, AJS and Matchless started having ever growing commonalties.

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AMC acquiring a better painting system in the 1930s than the one they already had is hardly stopping outside suppliers, because of problems, for their own system ??
That was a very long time ago too.

And Burmans made all of Norton gearboxes from the early 1930s through to the end of the AMC gearbox in Commandos, as far as I was aware.
Doing your own gearcutting is a big step - and Burmans were very experienced at it.
At some stage, the gears did acquire a thicker tooth profile, to strengthen them - beware mixing and matching ?!!

Acotrel.
I suggested the same to Norton a few years ago. I agree that it would be a good idea and would give the brand some credibility.
They replied with a very snotty answer that wasn't going to get me to buy one of their bikes.
I bought a new Bonnie.
I hope they don't repeat the mistakes of the past but they seem to be going down that road,

Hi

Funny how we read things & then take our own view on them? With a bit of time we also change them ourselves! Memory over time!

From my own point of view Norton was in danger as soon as its sister engineering company (Shelly) was sold by the board to shore up the company. They lost a profit making company that helped the overall companys profits & then Norton had to pay more to Shelly as an outside contractor to have their parts made for them!!!!

Short term thinking.

Chris

madass140 said:

some Royal Enfield bits arrived today, TLS front brake in particular, in genuine Royal Enfield packets.
utter junk,first thing I noticed was the brake camshafts had at least 20 thou clearance in the pivot holes.
beats me how this company sells bikes and survives if this is a sample of their work, any company in the rest of the world wouldnt last 6 months with this kind of quality. Royal Enfields are now available here in my country
dont think I'll be buying one.

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It’s called “Indian Technology” they don’t appear to work to drawings or dimensions.
They sell this junk, because they can.

acotrel said:

I'd love to see John Surtees, Ago, Phil Read or Jim Redman give the new Norton a blast a round a race circuit - that would be interesting.

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I went for a weekday practice day at Brands Hatch in the 1980s when Surtees was giving an Airing of the MV Augusta that he had built and followed him for a couple off laps before my ears could no longer stand the noise of the four open meggas, so I went past him as he was only “running the bike in”

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=joh ... ORM=NVPFVR

Rohan, You have got to be joking about those old riders. I suggest that if you ever got on a race circuit with them even these days you would get a shock. Surtees was an old man when this video was taken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL3Yv_GXnrw

My mate was in that race, and was a good A grader with a good manx. Surtees made it look easy, the rest went backwards. What you've said is like saying 'if I'd lived in the 15th century knowing what I know now, I'd have been a genius' . The truth is that you would have found out the truth about yourself. Unless those old guys have had strokes, you would find them extremely difficult to beat if they were riding roughly equivalent bikes. The point is you don't get what is inside their heads by playing tiddleywinks.
In SE Australia we have 'old farts' meetings. A friend of mine thought he was a good rider until he rode at one of those. No-one wants broken bones , however older riders are often a force to be reckoned with.
Do you really believe that you personally could beat Ago these days, if you were riding the similar bike ? You might have to get him drunk first.
Rohan vs Ago riding 500cc International Nortons on the Nurburgring sounds good to me. I'd like a piece of that too.

Have a look at some of these silly old bastards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWKu7ZJNn-U

This youtube video is the best reason to get my Mk3 running again!

acotrel said:

Rohan, You have got to be joking about those old riders. I suggest that if you ever got on a race circuit with them even these days you would get a shock. Surtees was an old man

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While I have a lot of respect for those guys...
It would be interesting to see how they go in a MotoGP event then, against Lorenzo and Marquez and Pedrosa..... ???
Rossi is one of the older riders in that field, less than half Agostinis age, and he is no longer quite there ?!!!

There is a reason that race teams hire, and train and nuture, the new young fast guns ? = They are fast ???

Rohan said:

So what did Nortons make ?
A few machining operations on a few castings and axles ??

It was long said that Nortons were just an assembly point for the final product, very little was done inhouse.
And less over time, it seems, until the Commando era.

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I think that the same can be said for the majority of things made today.... It's that damn global economy thing again.

Honestly, I really don't see what could be so hard about producing a motorcycle "in house" today.
With the available technology, If you had a working prototype........... you should be able to cnc 90% of the parts you need.
Those computer nerds can crank out precise components compared to the manual machinists 40 years ago!

I would think that a person with the right funding and the right computer / mechanical brain, would have a working bike available
for market in 5 years.
but would you be willing to pay 50K for one?

That said,,, I have no idea what kind of political bullshit you would have to go through to make a motor vehicle available for sale to the public,
but I would guarantee that there would be some!

Rohan, Expecting those old riders to adapt to modern MotoGP bikes is asking a bit much. It is a very different game. An associate of mine has a 500 manx with a molnar engine, and he has just recruited an older rider to pilot it. My feeling is that the rider is not old enough. He used to race an Atlas in the 60s and graduated to s ponsored TZ700s. However he never raced a manx in the old days. I've ridden a very original one, and they are something else. As a kid I watched the good guys on them, and it was poetry in motion. The other day, one of our faster youngsters got on a 500 manx after racing a fast CB77 honda for a long time. He won the race but said he found it boring. The question is how fast would he be going if he didn't find it boring ? I've personally only ever ridden one modern bike, a VFR400 honda. I couldn't get it to go fast enough to create any concerns, and thank God the police didn't see me. 180 KPH on that was nothing. I wonder what a n R1 Yamaha is like ? A MotoGP bike must be mind-boggling.
The point is that the new Norton is the old technology. It would be interesting to get feedback on its performance and handling from the older guys who were at the top when that technology was common. The difference between fast factory bikes has always been about feedback, and what Ago developed in the 500 MV-3 was obviously very advanced , and better than the 500 Honda four. We will never know how good the new Norton really is, until someone with extensive racing experience gets on one. There would be no point in getting a rider of modern supoerbikes to ride one and assess it, they are a totally different animal.

I'm sure if you have a look around, Alan Cathcart will have ridden a 961.
He is no youngster, and has possibly ridden a wider variety of bikes than anyone on the planet ?
And writes an excellent article, although whether he tells all warts and all is an interesting question.
Nothing in the 961 is very special though, its just commonly used stuff these days.
Yamaha and a number of makers do big capacity parallel twins these days, BMW included, all up-to-date-modern thinking.
(short strokes and balancer shafts)(and quite respectable power outputs).

Can recall that Barry Sheene went historic Manx racing, and after being initially quite sceptical of them,
was a demon on his, and on the G50 that followed.
Going back down a notch or 6 can produce some wizard racing..
Some of the young Honda Great Britain race guys also do historic racing, just for fun.
Some demon riding there too....

Rohan, the best racing in the world would have to be in that Lansdowne Series in the UK. For someone with my own mindset, it is ideal. The power and handling is limited by the technology and capacities involved. If I was to race a modern bike, I would have a real problem. You cannot afford to step off a superbike when you overcook what you are doing. I went through my crash and burn stage when I was in my twenties. I crashed at the first five meetings at which I rode, and I once managed to fall off four times in one day. It must be really beautiful to race on a truly level playing field a gainst guys on similar types of bikes. It then comes down to tuning and riding skills.
I've seen races at recent historic meetings where guys on two strokes compete against others on manxs. If you beat a guy on a manx by using a two stroke, you haven't proved a thing, even though your lap times might be similar. The racing lines are different, the tactics are different, and the costs of the technology are amazingly different.
The new Norton would be beautiful to race against similar thunderbikes - (two valves per cylinder, air cooled four stroke singles twins and triples up to 1000cc capacity). It would be an easy race class for promoters to run. My feeling is that it will never happen and if it doesnt, the new Norton will never be seen at its best.
A while ago we has a race class in Australia which catered for only one make - 883 Harley Sporters. The guys lost interest in it, as you would. It was a level playing field, but there was nothing to it while other makes were not involved. I believe the new Norton would crap on the best 1000cc Harley sportster, and in the right hands, see off a 1000cc aircooled Ducati or Guzzi .

I once saw a TV programme where Wayne Gardner had his first ride on a manx. When he stopped he was almost crying. He said ' I never knew what they were riding in the old days'. It is pretty funny when you think of the dramatic change from riding the latest 200 BHP rotary valve super handling four cylinder two stroke to riding something which hit the technology wall in 1962 as a 50 BHP 500cc thunderbike.
I watched him ride that BSA Gold Star of Fred Walmsley at Goodwood in 2008. He was extemely competent however seemed almost aimless . It appeared to me that he knew that it didn't matter what situation he ended up in, he would be confident he could handle it without crashing. The thing is that it is all racing, and winning on a thunderbike is as good as winning on anything else provided there is no grossly unfair advantage.
In that same race Jeremy McWilliams was riding Mick Hemmings 500cc Norton twin and Phil Read was on an old MV. - Really good stuff !

This is Gardner on Fred's BSA :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9i4ssiDsRY

I just love this video clip, have a look at Gardner :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52xkLeU9AL4

Making bikes or parts 'abroad' is not the issue and it the arrogance that others coudn't be as good as us caused our downfall in the UK . Quality systems and inspections checks can ensure supply of parts. Bloor has done a great job for sure; quality bikes.