Full Auto inlet valve seals

Sorry steve and Pete

As I said I am used to working with used parts like these.



Inlet on the right.

pete.v said:

SteveA said:

So what i hear you say is that you pressed this seal over the valve, onto the guide, did some checking, then jumped on a plane and left it for us to figure out?

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Not exactly like that no....If I don't jump on a plane some time I don't get paid....I work in another country....simple

I started this on Saturday...from bare head....with part assembled bottom end and barrels...and I have done several trial assembly head on barrels and strip routines, finished the bottom end including fitting Jim Comstock's hydraulic tensioner and am part in to fixing the fouling between the barrels and the Maney push rods....so I fugured a few things for myself...but this one was nagging me....

This is a new build with a couple of boxes of new parts from many sources and the last time I built a Norton engine was in the '70s, I ain't doing too bad...

I am looking with interest at Matt's input and can check that out Saturday....

From that I would say from that, and your comment about a special little driver, I have totally under estimated the force I need to apply to get the seal set...which is probably due to the metal shell....we will see

CNW said:

Steve,

If you look at the guide, there is a groove. If you look at the inside of the seal, there is a ridge.

You will need to put a fair amount of pressure on the seal to get seated all the way.

You can use a small socket that just fits over the spring side of the seal

Lubricate the seal where it will fit over the guide

Put an extension on the socket so you can get you hand on it and push the seal square onto the guide. When its all the way home, the lower part of the seal will be almost all the way to the bottom of the guide

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

http://www.coloradonortonworks.com

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Thanks Matt

I will try the procedure Saturday...

SteveA said:

From that I would say from that, and your comment about a special little driver, I have totally under estimated the force I need to apply to get the seal set...which is probably due to the metal shell....we will see

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I mentioned earlier that removing the valve after setting the seal would trash the guide. I meant the seal.

I think you getting close Steve.

Here is the tool that Jim sent along with the seals. It's sort of a tough delrin type of material.

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Right guys....so it's like this...and from what you sould be able to see the seal does not have any rubber right at the end of teh metal shell.....and that is the issue...

The guide does have a groove, machined very close to the shoulder of the guide, much like the one shown in auldblue's pics....but of course much much nicer ....very difficult to photograph inside the head...

Leaving out the valve. The seal drops down over the guide and the metal shell touches the shoulder with a metalic clink..actually with no effort at all....no amount of force is going to move it down any further....tip up the head and and the seal falls out....you don't even have to pull it off...

So the problem is the seal, I hope you can see, it has only a lead in chamfer and no 'lip' whatsover to engage the groove on guide.

1 I feel better that the guide has no problem, and that I am not being stupid....and fella's I knew I had some idea what I was doing....

2 I am pissed that the seal is no good, and I will lose time getting this silly little thing sorted

I am pissed mainly because am trying to build a race engine without the appropriate time to do it....these things do happen, but I am having more issues than I expected...due to components....not only these. Don't think I am pissed off with individuals, thats not where we are.

Only way forward is an alternate seal....with the required lip

Angie is sending me a couple from her stock, they may be the same as these, we will see...

If Full Auto has stock that is different I hope he will send a couple too....

SteveA said:

Fullauto said:

Hi Steve,
Don't try to modify the seals. There has not been an issue so far so just use them and they should be fine.

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Ken I really appreciate you responding.

Perhaps I just need a different technique, or a better understanding of how they are supposed to work.

What I have done is lubricated the seal to allow the valve stem to run through the seal easily and not tear it....obviously I also lubed the valve stem....I pushed the seal on to the valve guide, fully home....pushed the valve through the guide at which time it lifts the seal off the guide....I pushed the seal back on the guide....and moved the valve in and out by hand....the seal remains gripped to the valve stem and does not grip the guide...it moves up and down with the valve....same on both cylinders.

I don't think that is what you intend to happen...so how will I get the seals to grip the guide without doing something?

Or should I just let them move?

My experience on other engine types is that even a groove in the valve guide and a lip on the seal that fits into the groove is no guarantee the seal wont move after time. But at least they stay in place till you finish the engine build...at which point generally you have stopped worrying about where they are and if they move!

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The seals you describe are/were in common use in the automotive industry and should have an interference fit with the guide. They need no lips or grooves. If the seals aren't staying put on the guide then the seal's too big or the guide's too small. Measure them - the guide should have a larger O.D than the I.D of the seal. Considering the seal material only needs to be 0.002" - 0.003" difference I would guess. My guess is the guides are undersize.

Al-otment said:

The seals you describe are/were in common use in the automotive industry and should have an interference fit with the guide. They need no lips or grooves. If the seals aren't staying put on the guide then the seal's too big or the guide's too small. Measure them - the guide should have a larger O.D than the I.D of the seal. Considering the seal material only needs to be 0.002" - 0.003" difference I would guess. My guess is the guides are undersize.

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Don't know if you saw my last post, these items are not an interference fit...

Having measired, the guide is 0.501", the inside of the seal is 0.508"

There is a PN on the guide see later post....

I would be surprised if the guide in a newly supplied head is undersize....

Matt from CNW is a supplier of these heads and mentions groove and lip....we have the groove....

Will standard Norton seals fit these guides?

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SteveA said:

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Steve, that is definately different the my seals. Mine were/are seemingly ceramic in nature and should be considered high end and desirable for your race motor. You should PM comnoz to get a set.
Maybe when comnoz gets back from were ever he is, he can comment with a photo or 2.

Looks like the wrong seals have been supplied. Who ever sold you the head get them to send some correct seals from the guy who sold them the head - pronto. What do you expect for £2500 ? Don't get me started on spares and suppliers. See you at Cadwell for the Burn-Up Aug 1st/2nd. Good luck.

He is at the rally in Oregon.

Al-otment said:

Looks like the wrong seals have been supplied. Who ever sold you the head get them to send some correct seals from the guy who sold them the head - pronto. What do you expect for £2500 ? Don't get me started on spares and suppliers. See you at Cadwell for the Burn-Up Aug 1st/2nd. Good luck.

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Come on....don't exagerate it was only £1750....

Also be aware that I am in touch with both Angie and Mick and Ken at Full Auto.....I am not pointing fingers....

And for the detectives amongst us...

Best I can read the inscription on the guide it is CHE Inc 501-312-180-I-4

501 for 0.501" OD? I for inlet?

Who knows but a quick look at the exhaust and it looks identical to me complete with groove?


Look whatever we do, please don't turn this into a witch hunt or blame game, I just want a solution.

SteveA said:

I would be surprised if the guide in a newly supplied head is undersize....and really much more than a little upset....

Matt from CNW is a supplier of these heads and mentions groove and lip....we have the groove....

Will standard Norton seals fit these guides?

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No matter what size the guide might be, the area that retains the seal would remain unchanged, unless botched during machining.

That guide shown above appears that it surely would take a standard seal.

I do find it strange about the exhaust guide being the same. I have never heard of an Norton exhaust guide/valve seal.

Last from me....


The seal drops on until it contacts the shoulder of the guide....

I can actually spin it with my finger like this...

wrong seal for this guide...

Now to find the right one, thats all we need....

Sorted. Send me your address so I can send replacement valve stem seals. I will source super duper state of the art stem seals for all future orders. Don't know how yours slipped through the net. Merasured the rest and they are all under .490.

Got to say , go ahead ****, make my day. Who'd of thought it.

Poor steve was in an awful tizzy, we all thought it was him , innocent till proven guilty .

Steve mate , I knew it wisny you pal.honest!

Got they seals yet!

Fullauto said:

Sorted. Send me your address so I can send replacement valve stem seals. I will source super duper state of the art stem seals for all future orders. Don't know how yours slipped through the net. Merasured the rest and they are all under .490.

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Solved, wrong seals.

Thank you Ken.

and Thanks to Mick and Angie for also looking for a solution for me.

And to Matt for chiming in.....we couldn't do any of this stuff without suppliers who share our passion and want to be in the business they chose.

Nae auldblue, ye ken t'wisny me....

Glad you got the right seals. A little trick to removing a valve once fitted is to wrap the stem with teflon tape so the ledge doesn't bugger up the seal.
Slips right out.

SteveA said:

Fullauto said:

Sorted. Send me your address so I can send replacement valve stem seals. I will source super duper state of the art stem seals for all future orders. Don't know how yours slipped through the net. Merasured the rest and they are all under .490.

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Solved, wrong seals.

Thank you Ken.

and Thanks to Mick and Angie for also looking for a solution for me.

And to Matt for chiming in.....we couldn't do any of this stuff without suppliers who share our passion and want to be in the business they chose.

.......

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Fucking hell......sounds like the start of an Oscar acceptance speech. People get into the business of selling classic bike parts because there's a lot of customers with apparently an abundance of cash to spend on their hobby. If they didn't provide a service somebody else would. I'm continually surprised by peoples eagerness to praise a parts distributor when all they're doing is what most retail outlets do when a customer has a problem - a case of low expectation? I assume these guys are firing off positive e-mails every time their local supermarket has got some groceries on the shelf within the sell-by date, "Wow...couldn't believe the range of food on offer - and it was all edible!"

I'd like to thank Thomas Edison for his work on electricity, the United States government for developing the internet, God for building the planet and the rest of the universe...... etc etc.

Well ole Ben Franklin said expect the worst to be relieved when it don't happen in your case.

What seals are used with the K/W 6 mm stem valves?