Front Wheel

So, my wheel rims were incorrectly swapped, when it was restored in 2014. The rear is a 1x1 dimple and it looks fine, so I am sticking with it.

Mart UK said:

So, my wheel rims were incorrectly swapped, when it was restored in 2014.

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That really depends on the positions of the nipple holes whether the rims with correctly positioned nipple holes are swapped over or, if the holes are positioned correctly for 'front' or 'rear' but in what could be the 'wrong' rim.

Mart UK said:

The rear is a 1x1 dimple and it looks fine, so I am sticking with it.

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In my opinion, the change to the RH nipple hole positions to suit a 1x1 dimpled rim seems minimal.

Thanks. I was working off the dimple positions. My understanding is, for a mk3, the front should be 1x1 and the rear should be 3x1. Mine were the other way round. So, I have guessed the hubs were attached to the wrong rims, when re-spoked. I've sorted the front, because the old one failed. I'll monitor the rear. No sign of damage and the spokes appear to exit the dimples at a suitable angle.

Mart UK said:

I was working off the dimple positions. My understanding is, for a mk3, the front should be 1x1 and the rear should be 3x1.

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Yes, as previously mentioned the normal dimple patterns are 1x1 front, and 3x1 rear, however, it has not been established if the nipple hole positions in the dimples are correct for a 3x1 rim used at the front (as CWC seem to think and supply such a 3x1 rim for the front disc wheel) or not? Also whether the nipple hole positions are correct for a 1x1 rim fitted at the rear or not as neither are original Dunlop rims (with 'MC' numbers)?

Mart UK said:

I've come across Buchanan. Top quality recommendations in the classic Harley world, they didn't come up on my search for Commando rims. IIRC probably out of my price bracket though.

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I just ordered rims and spokes for my 74 Commando from Buchanan. They have spoke kits and they drill the rims to order. They are pricey! But they are "Purtifull"! I got Excel shouldered rims and stainless spokes in CNW specs.

What is "pricey"?

Been reading this, after getting this set of spokes for what was stated on Buchanan's site:

1973 and later COMMANDO FRONT DISC hubs - 40 count
8 GAUGE SPOKES with .281" DIAMETER NIPPLES
Polished cast aluminum spool hub measures 4" diameter and 3" wide. Rims must be drilled specifically to
fit this hub due to the severe offset of the rim to the hub. Stock spokes were 8 ga. with .300" diameter nipples.

Confusingly written, to me. If the stock spokes were .300 why would they supply .281 in their kit for a '73? I have to return and replace to get the .300s. My rim is an MC275 from a '73 and to the best of my knowledge original. Actually I have two of them, and they are WM2, disc on right, 1x1 pattern. I called and was told by Mr. Bucahnan in absolute terms that no, they are all 3x1 and .281 (despite the wording on his own site), and someone must have bent a rim and put on a Triumph rim.

Well, I got both of my identical ones, one laced with disc on it, one bare, from a Norton guy who knew the parts history since new. Not to argue with a spoke expert, but something doesn't add up here.

Only the 20 disc side spokes were 8 SWG (0.160").

The non-disc side spokes were 9 SWG (0.144").
20 nipples, therefore were, 8 SWG x .300" and 20, 9 SWG x .300"



All standard Commando disc front rims (Dunliop MC275, MC288) were 1x1 dimple pattern with 0.300" nipple holes, not .281".



"The picture illustrates a rim pierced to accept a .300 inch nipple with a smaller .281 inch nipple installed. I show this because in the US .281 inch Japanese style nipples often find their way into spoke kits. It is possible this nipple could pull through during tightening, or fail in use, it is important to be sure you use the correct nipple for your rim."


In the article, it says the CWC replacement rims are 3x1 dimple pattern but fails to mention the original Dunlops were 1x1.

"The Central Wheel Norton disc front rim (06-1951) is dimpled 3×1 and is handed."


From the same author John Healy on the Britbike forum:

"This 3x1 pattern never came stock on the Norton front wheel.
Central Wheel, and others, have started to use the 3x1 dimpling as their standard for the Norton front wheel in just the last couple of years." (CWC certainly longer than the last couple of years now)

L.A.B. said:

Only the 20 disc side spokes were 8 SWG (0.160").

The non-disc side spokes were 9 SWG (0.144").
20 nipples, therefore were, 8 SWG x .300" and 20, 9 SWG x .300"

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Thanks, yes that lines up with what I had on my wheel. I read that article too before I rebuilt using my original spokes. I thought replacing with SS new ones would be straightforward, but no.

gpzkat said:

I thought replacing with SS new ones would be straightforward, but no.

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It's high time Buchanan's corrected their mistake.
(And CWC).

Years ago, before I knew much I had a local wheel builder of considerable repute lace an 18 inch Dunlop WM3 rim onto my MkIII. The rim is 1X1, 2-cross on the drive side, 3 cross on the disc side. I've not given it a thought since. It's never given me any trouble nor has it ever been trued. But, this discussion about rim dimpling has be wondering about the rear rim. What is the down side of using a 1X1 rim on the MKIII rear? Also, I have recently installed a 13" floating disc with Grimica caliper from RGM on the front and I'm wondering if the existing spokes and lacing pattern are still OK. I don't ride hard anymore but someone I sell the bike to one day might. The brake is far more powerful than stock.

Second question: I have a set of stainless spokes stamped "B" that I ordered years ago when I worked in the Norton shop. I had intended to lace them on my then pristine Atlas to match the polished stainless spokes on the front. I forgot to specify "polished" in the order and they came unpolished. I never used them. I still have the bike and I'm spiffing it up a bit, again. Is it worth polishing them? Or should I just buy a set of polished spokes? How much time might it take and what color rouge would I use?

The bike presently has single-butted spokes on both sides of the rear hub. I've used them in building bicycle wheels but never motorcycle wheels. What might the noticeable difference between butted and non-butted on a motorcycle. Surely it can't be enough weight saving to matter.

Thomasa said:

Also, I have recently installed a 13" floating disc with Grimica caliper from RGM on the front and I'm wondering if the existing spokes and lacing pattern are still OK.

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If 8 and 9 SWG (even if stainless) then there should be no cause for concern (as 8 SWG was overdoing it in my opinion when the heavier T160 had all 10 SWG front spokes).

Thomasa said:

Second question: I have a set of stainless spokes stamped "B" that I ordered years ago when I worked in the Norton shop. I had intended to lace them on my then pristine Atlas to match the polished stainless spokes on the front.

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"B"...
...Buchanan's perhaps?

Thomasa said:

Is it worth polishing them? Or should I just buy a set of polished spokes? How much time might it take...?

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Depends on how fast you work and how polished you want them.

I talked to another of the Buchanan's and he said the 8 gauge I got for the non-disc side is what they use on the CWC (I believe) wheels and they use .281 nipples. I measured mine again as I had the originals, the nipples were just about exactly .300, per my good micrometer, and the holes about .310 - my gauge which can measure internal diameter is only to hundreds. He said use the 8s on both sides and that's what I'll do. The .281 nipples were loose and not suitable just like the picture in the link that L.A.B. sent and which I had been referring to. Here's hoping all's good when I receive the .300's.

I got a new WM3 18" rear from AN and laced that up with Buchanan's kit. It's going to be so nice to have the new rear with the stainless spokes/nipples and an extremely good Dunlop WM2 MC275 original on the front with new stainless spokes/nipples

I have some quite good spare rims now, two rear (and also front drum?) Dunlop WM2 19" MB41's and one MC275 for front disc to sell, let me know if anyone is interested. So my bike's hanging out waiting for the rims to be laced and trued and the K70s which arrive Sunday to be mounted up. It's a 'bitsa' but I think it'll look pretty sweet. And it may even run!

gpzkat said:

I talked to another of the Buchanan's and he said the 8 gauge I got for the non-disc side is what they use on the CWC (I believe) wheels and they use .281 nipples.

The .281 nipples were loose and not suitable just like the picture in the link that L.A.B. sent and which I had been referring to.

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Unless CWC supplies Buchanan's with a different specification rim then the CWC front disc rim has holes for .300" nipples as described in the Vintagebike article (by John Healy of Coventry Spares).

The CWC rim sold by AN as 06.1951 (all Commando disc front) must also have holes for standard .300" nipples.

Why Buchanan's (Edit: chooses to ignore this as the .300" nipple size information is on their web page as they will supply .250" nipples for the drum rim) one can only imagine as .281" isn't a British or CWC spoke nipple size.
Edit: http://www.buchananspokes.com/products/spoke_kits_norton.asp
"Stock spokes were 8 ga. with .300" diameter nipples."
Not entirely correct as only 20 were 8 gauge.

gpzkat said:

He said use the 8s on both sides and that's what I'll do.

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Are these "8 gauge" spokes (approximately) .160"?

Devon's front rims are 1x1. I was unaware of the 281 vs 300 nipples issue, but the nipples they sent with the wheel and spokes fill the holes fine, so 300s, I'd say.

Interested in the question about whether 1x1 is ok for the rear, if the spokes are laced to the hub correctly. On my mk3 850, incorrectly, when restored in 2014, the front rim was laced to the rear hub and vice versa. The front rim failed (cracked), but that may be because the LHS spoke direction/pattern was on the RHS and vice versa! They couldn't have got the front more wrong, but I found it confusing to get right. As LAB pointed out at the time, the spares diagrams and some publicity photos of the time, show the incorrect lacing pattern, presumably carried over from mk2s with the disc on the other side?

Mart UK said:

Devon's front rims are 1x1. I was unaware of the 281 vs 300 nipples issue, but the nipples they sent with the wheel and spokes fill the holes fine, so 300s, I'd say.

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Yes, Devon Rim Co. sell the correct .300" nipples.
"Stainless Steel Spoke set for Standard Norton Disc Front Hub on 19” Rims Manufactured from Premium Grade 950 - 1050 N/mm2 High Quality U.K. produced Stainless Steel Wire and completed as Spoke Sets right here in England. supplied as follows.
Spokes are Rolltru Premium mixed Single Thickness 8 gauge 4.0mm for Disc Side & 9 gauge 3.6mm for the other flange as per original OEM Specification
Set consists of the following components
10 x 8 gauge Spokes Bent to Brake Side Inner Specification
10 x 8 gauge Spokes Bent to Brake Side Outer Specification
10 x 9 gauge Spokes Bent to Inner Specification
10 x 9 gauge Spokes Bent to Outer Specification
20 x 8 gauge .300" Brass Nickel Plated Nipples
20 x 9 gauge .300" Brass Nickel Plated Nipples

Buchanan's has had plenty of time to get it right. Apparently, have been supplying 0.281" nipples for quite some time and it would appear that some Dunlop rims are, or were, drilled for the smaller nipples.

I have an early Commando drum-brake wheel, rim MC-41, 1X1, probably a replacement, using Buchanan's 8 swg stainless spokes and 0.281" nipples. The rim appears to be drilled for .281" nipples. It was laced it up in the early nineties. The spoke kit I mentioned yesterday, I bought a few years later (late nineties) and is indeed from Buchanan's and has .281" nipples.

FWIW the 18" Radaelli rear rim I had laced for my MKIII about 1989 has 8 swg spokes and .300" nipples. They do not appear to be Buchanan's spokes.

Thomasa said:

Buchanan's has had plenty of time to get it right. Apparently, have been supplying 0.281" nipples for quite some time and it would appear that some Dunlop rims are, or were, drilled for the smaller nipples.

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Yes, that's the sad part as 0.281" is not a British spoke nipple size.

Thomasa said:

I have an early Commando drum-brake wheel, rim MC-41, 1X1, probably a replacement, using Buchanan's 8 swg stainless spokes and 0.281" nipples. The rim appears to be drilled for .281" nipples.

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The Commando front and rear Dunlop drum brake rim is the MB41* (WM2-19, 1x1).
*(Some 850 Mk2/2A, however, had a Dunlop MC286 drum rear rim with 9 SWG spokes and .300" nipples. Some rims from that time were also made by Jones)

The MB41 spoke nipple size is 10 SWG x .250" not .281", so yes, an original MB41 would have to be drilled to take .281" nipples but that's a different matter entirely compared to supplying .281" nipples for a standard .300" hole disc rim.


"
Devon / Dunlop Part Code = MB41-CH.
06-7712, NM18350.
Bike Fitments = Atlas, Commando, Dominator & more if fitted with these same hubs.
Suitable fitment for both Front or Rear Hubs. Please make sure your Hub matches the one we show in this listing.
Dimple Pattern = 1x1 .250 Nipple Holes
Rim Finish = British Triple Chrome
"