Frame repair worth it?

black cat · Jan 6, 2019

Stephen Hill said:
black cat, was your 1968 frame broken on the top tube, like the one in this thread?
Did you repair the frame, including putting the lower brace in it?
I have a broken 1968 frame that looks a lot like the one in this thread, and wonder how difficult it would be to fix it.
Straightening and sleeving the large diameter tube seems tricky, and adding the tube brace with that weird shoe in place also seemed kind of tricky.

Stephen Hill

Mine wasn’t broken so it was an easy fix. Unfortunately I had to cut up a frame to get that part, as this work was done about 18 years ago and that was the only option at that time.

lcrken · Jan 7, 2019

I'm a little late to this discussion, and it looks like you've already sorted it out for your bike, but here's a link to an earlier thread I started on one of my Commando frame straightening adventures. I don't know if it will add anything new, but it seems to fit into the direction this thread has taken. I would guess that any professional frame straightening shop would have more purpose-built jigs for this sort of work, and would do most of the bending with hydraulic cylinders instead of heat. This is just my approach to doing one-off sorts of work for my own projects.

In this particular case, I started with just straightening the frame, them went back and cut the steering head out to weld it back on at a reduced rake. I did fit a reinforcing tube inside the top frame tube when welding it.

https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/commando-frame-straigtening.19931/#post-297393

Ken

jbruney · Jan 9, 2019

I don't have a dog in this fight, and also come late...Replacing the entire tube, good TIG welder, and stress relieving are wise choices.

Stephen Hill · Jan 9, 2019

Thanks for the link Ken. It looks like to sleeve the main top tube, you removed the steering head by cutting through the top tube, and the two front down tubes. Did you also sleeve the down tubes, or just weld them?
On the "widowmaker" frames, when the top tube breaks and has been rewelded (usually badly), the top tube is typically bent and drooped. I think this would be tough to sleeve. In which case I think the best thing to do is remove the bent and welded section of the top tube, sleeve in a straight section behind the break, and reweld to the steering head. Do you agree?
Is it hard to find replacement tubing for the top tube, and a sleeve that would fit inside??

Stephen Hill

dougmatson · Jan 28, 2019

Interesting read! I have a 68' original that has low miles and is in very nice condition (motor number is 127541). It's part of a collection of 30 bikes I have been selling for a deceased friend. What do I tell people who make an offer on this, great bike but don't ride it until you have the frame fixed? Or don't ride it on bumpy roads? One thing I have noticed is the lack of chrome plating on it parts compared to say my 75' Commando.

lcrken · Jan 28, 2019

Stephen Hill said:
Thanks for the link Ken. It looks like to sleeve the main top tube, you removed the steering head by cutting through the top tube, and the two front down tubes. Did you also sleeve the down tubes, or just weld them?
On the "widowmaker" frames, when the top tube breaks and has been rewelded (usually badly), the top tube is typically bent and drooped. I think this would be tough to sleeve. In which case I think the best thing to do is remove the bent and welded section of the top tube, sleeve in a straight section behind the break, and reweld to the steering head. Do you agree?
Is it hard to find replacement tubing for the top tube, and a sleeve that would fit inside??

Stephen Hill

Sorry for the late reply, Stephen. I did not put sleeves in the down tubes, just the main backbone. The downtubes are very heavy wall tube, and the welds were close to the ends, so I didn't think sleeves were needed. I had done the same thing to a Commando race bike some years ago, and it survived many years of hard racing with no problems.

I've never tried finding a replacement section for the top tube, so I don't know if it is a commonly available size. For the sleeve inside, I made one up from a slightly oversize piece of tube, slitting it lengthwise, compressing it to size, and welding and grinding the seam.

Ken

Stephen Hill · Jan 29, 2019

Thanks Ken. How do you sleeve the top backbone if you don't remove the downtubes? I don't understand how you get the sleeve into the main tube.

Stephen Hill

cliffa · Jan 29, 2019

dougmatson said:
Interesting read! I have a 68' original that has low miles and is in very nice condition (motor number is 127541). It's part of a collection of 30 bikes I have been selling for a deceased friend. What do I tell people who make an offer on this, great bike but don't ride it until you have the frame fixed? Or don't ride it on bumpy roads? One thing I have noticed is the lack of chrome plating on it parts compared to say my 75' Commando.

I love all those bikes!!! What is that on the bottom left? pretty sure it's an M.V. (maybe an America?) but can't place it, unless it's had the fairing removed?

Regarding your question about the widowmaker frame. My personal opinion is that you must inform a buyer of the potentially lethal consequences of riding it without modification. If not for the rider, possibly a passenger or an innocent third party. It would not take an insurance investigator (or Police) long to discover the well documented history of these frames including the recall and probably big insurance claims in the U.S. There are plenty of public references here on Access Norton (including this post) and other sites which are easy to search even for a non member. Possibly folks on here will disagree, but ask yourself would you let one of your kids on it?

Cheers,

cliffa.

Fast Eddie · Jan 29, 2019

dougmatson said:
Interesting read! I have a 68' original that has low miles and is in very nice condition (motor number is 127541). It's part of a collection of 30 bikes I have been selling for a deceased friend. What do I tell people who make an offer on this, great bike but don't ride it until you have the frame fixed? Or don't ride it on bumpy roads? One thing I have noticed is the lack of chrome plating on it parts compared to say my 75' Commando.

Well, even if Cliffa’s post doesn’t activate your conscience, you’ve now posted on the internet that you know the frame is potentially dangerous. If you don’t inform the buyer and, God forbid, something does happen, I’d say you’ve just made yourself liable!

Sure, the above scenario is a long shot perhaps. But all in all, I’d say honesty is your best policy.

cliffa · Jan 29, 2019

Fast Eddie said:
Well, even if Cliffa’s post doesn’t activate your conscience, you’ve now posted on the internet that you know the frame is potentially dangerous. If you don’t inform the buyer, and, God forbid, something does happen, I’d say you’ve just made yourself liable!

Sure, the above scenario is a long shot perhaps. But all in all, I’d say honesty is your best policy.

My point exactly (to all knowing widowmaker riders).

dougmatson · Jan 29, 2019

I would never try to hide that about the frame. I just was trying to see what options there are!

concours · Jan 30, 2019

Sleeving before welding is not required. If your weldor wants to do it, find a different weldor.
40 years in the trade, FAA A&P, ASME III & VIII certs.

jbruney · Jan 30, 2019

Damn! An XR 750 hiding in that horde.

lcrken · Jan 30, 2019

Stephen Hill said:
Thanks Ken. How do you sleeve the top backbone if you don't remove the downtubes? I don't understand how you get the sleeve into the main tube.

Stephen Hill

I cut the downtubes at the top, near the steering head, making the cut at an angle to give a larger weld area. I cut the horizontal tube just back from the steering head, and the backbone a little further back. Those cuts let me remove the steering head, slide the sleeve into the backbone, tack it in place, then reinstall the steering head by sliding the short bit of backbone attached to it over the sleeve. After that, I put the frame back in the jig, lined everything up, and welded all the cuts.

FWIW, I agree with concours that it probably wasn't necessary to sleeve the backbone, but I did it anyway, on the "chicken soup" theory that it couldn't hurt.

Ken

acotrel · Jan 30, 2019

I once considered using a Commando frame. Then I had a closer look at one.

cliffa · Jan 30, 2019

dougmatson said:
I would never try to hide that about the frame. I just was trying to see what options there are!

dougmatson, I was in no way implying any dishonesty on your part,so apologies if that’s the way it came across. It was more making a buyer fully aware of the situation, and maybe even note it in a sales receipt. More for your protection really.

Cheers,

cliffa.

Stephen Hill · Jan 30, 2019

Thanks Ken! Very helpful.

Stephen Hill

black cat · Jan 31, 2019

My frame was fixed about 20 years ago, stripped down recently for some other issues not related to the frame, and of course repainted. I had a friend of mine who is a professional welder look over the frames for any problems and he thought everything looked good.

dougmatson · Jan 31, 2019

I didn't take any offense for the remark and I appreciate the honesty! Yes that is a beautiful MV Augusta 750S America and it comes with a race fairing and lots of other extras. The XR750 is very special it took 2nd in its class at the Legands of Motorcycle event at Pebble Beach, in the pic is Mert Lawwell who built the frame and the rockers for the motor, the motor is a Jim Kelly motor and it comes with a starting block and it is street legal and plated in California, like I said its very special!

acotrel · Jan 31, 2019

The XR750 is an unusual Harley. It is a real motorcycle - not just something to make a fat hairy tattooed pig look good.

Frame repair worth it?

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