Frame modification to kick on side stand

As an owner of a '71 Commando that had the worst side stand lug on the mount of any Commando, I adapted to the lack of a side stand. Kick starting cold was with the center stand. No drama and the carb floats were level. There should be a red flag warning to any member of the forum who buys/ restores a '71 Commando to inform them of the defect.
I use the same technique for the '73 850.
During my current restoration of the 750, the later lug was welded in.
I view the side stand as only a convivence while parking during a ride. I never bother kick starting on the side stand, too much weight on it. It will sink into loose gravel or dent asphalt. Easy enough to start a warm engine without any stand.
Once I upgrade both Commandos to CNW electric start it will be a moot point
 
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Clever kit for creating a stop and allowing you to adjust the angle of dangle.
But I doubt that in the long run in will stand up to kickstarting the bike on the sidestand. (If that is the intent).
The radius will turn into a V, the strap will stretch, the holes for the through bolt will elongate, etc, etc.
There is no FIX: we just swap out alternate temporary solutions to the problem.
Kind of like we do for most of the built in imperfections in the Norton.
Or is this too glass half empty???
:)
 
Stephen Hill said:
Clever kit for creating a stop and allowing you to adjust the angle of dangle.
But I doubt that in the long run in will stand up to kickstarting the bike on the sidestand. (If that is the intent).
The radius will turn into a V, the strap will stretch, the holes for the through bolt will elongate, etc, etc.
There is no FIX: we just swap out alternate temporary solutions to the problem.
Kind of like we do for most of the built in imperfections in the Norton.
Or is this too glass half empty???
:)
Click to expand...
Yeah - I don't know why you don't just slash your wrists and get it over with! ;) ;)
 
Never, never use a side stand to kick your Norton to life no matter how much compression it has, when I first brought my 850 Commando new I was 5'8 and 9 stone nothing with chicken legs so I used the side stand all the time for kicking but after just 6 months the side stand was flogged out at the lug and even using the centre stand for starting one side mounting bolt broke and the bike nearly fell over with me on it.
I have never used any stand since, I learned how to kick it to life with all stands up and out of the way, my Norton has a lot more compression now than it did back in the 70s, but a neat trick I use to start my Norton on the road I have my left leg on the gutter of the road which is a bit higher than the road, the extra height of the left leg makes it a lot easier to kick with your kicking leg, up in the shed I have a concrete besser block about the same height of a gutter on the road that I use, just having that extra height for the left leg helps a lot with kicking, I learned this trick when young and skinny with my chicken legs.
Having a T160 longer kicker also make life easier on kicking over the 850 and having a motor that starts on first kick every time helps as well, I can kick it on flat ground but its a lot easier with the left leg up higher by a few inches makes a big difference.
When I did the conversion to the Featherbed frame back in the 80s I ran it with out any side stand or centre stand for 25 years or more, everyone knew my bike as it was always leaning on house wall, post or fence when parked lol, I now have a short clamp on side stand just for parking and nothing else.
It always pay to learn to kick start your Norton without using any stands at all, as I learned the knack a very long time ago, well 46+ years ago and by the way I still have chicken legs lol.

Ashley
 
ashman said:
Never, never use a side stand to kick your Norton to life no matter how much compression it has, when I first brought my 850 Commando new I was 5'8 and 9 stone nothing with chicken legs so I used the side stand all the time for kicking but after just 6 months the side stand was flogged out at the lug and even using the centre stand for starting one side mounting bolt broke and the bike nearly fell over with me on it.
I have never used any stand since, I learned how to kick it to life with all stands up and out of the way, my Norton has a lot more compression now than it did back in the 70s, but a neat trick I use to start my Norton on the road I have my left leg on the gutter of the road which is a bit higher than the road, the extra height of the left leg makes it a lot easier to kick with your kicking leg, up in the shed I have a concrete besser block about the same height of a gutter on the road that I use, just having that extra height for the left leg helps a lot with kicking, I learned this trick when young and skinny with my chicken legs.
Having a T160 longer kicker also make life easier on kicking over the 850 and having a motor that starts on first kick every time helps as well, I can kick it on flat ground but its a lot easier with the left leg up higher by a few inches makes a big difference.
When I did the conversion to the Featherbed frame back in the 80s I ran it with out any side stand or centre stand for 25 years or more, everyone knew my bike as it was always leaning on house wall, post or fence when parked lol, I now have a short clamp on side stand just for parking and nothing else.
It always pay to learn to kick start your Norton without using any stands at all, as I learned the knack a very long time ago, well 46+ years ago and by the way I still have chicken legs lol.

Ashley
Click to expand...
I have always kicked my commando over with it on the side stand
In fact all my Brit bikes I kick on the side stand I once had a problem with my commando featherbed when the clamp on stand started to rotate so I welded it up
And my b50 engined B44 was easier to start on the centre stand than side stand
Apart from that no issues
 
baz said:
I have always kicked my commando over with it on the side stand
In fact all my Brit bikes I kick on the side stand I once had a problem with my commando featherbed when the clamp on stand started to rotate so I welded it up
And my b50 engined B44 was easier to start on the centre stand than side stand
Apart from that no issues
Click to expand...
Baz I just learned to kick all my bikes with kickers without using side stands or centre stands and once my Norton has been started for the day it is easy to kick it to life sitting on the seat, none of my mates can do it on my bike, but then after 47+ years I think I have it down pat lol.
 
ashman said:
Never, never use a side stand to kick your Norton to life no matter how much compression it has, when I first brought my 850 Commando new I was 5'8 and 9 stone nothing with chicken legs so I used the side stand all the time for kicking but after just 6 months the side stand was flogged out at the lug and even using the centre stand for starting one side mounting bolt broke and the bike nearly fell over with me on it.
I have never used any stand since, I learned how to kick it to life with all stands up and out of the way, my Norton has a lot more compression now than it did back in the 70s, but a neat trick I use to start my Norton on the road I have my left leg on the gutter of the road which is a bit higher than the road, the extra height of the left leg makes it a lot easier to kick with your kicking leg, up in the shed I have a concrete besser block about the same height of a gutter on the road that I use, just having that extra height for the left leg helps a lot with kicking, I learned this trick when young and skinny with my chicken legs.
Having a T160 longer kicker also make life easier on kicking over the 850 and having a motor that starts on first kick every time helps as well, I can kick it on flat ground but its a lot easier with the left leg up higher by a few inches makes a big difference.
When I did the conversion to the Featherbed frame back in the 80s I ran it with out any side stand or centre stand for 25 years or more, everyone knew my bike as it was always leaning on house wall, post or fence when parked lol, I now have a short clamp on side stand just for parking and nothing else.
It always pay to learn to kick start your Norton without using any stands at all, as I learned the knack a very long time ago, well 46+ years ago and by the way I still have chicken legs lol.

Ashley
Click to expand...
I was able to buy the Dunstall longer kick start lever when I upped the CR on my 750. It got a little chewed on the top from hitting the tarmac when starting without center stand
unless you leaned it left. Such as when it stalled :-(
 
Deckard said:
I was able to buy the Dunstall longer kick start lever when I upped the CR on my 750. It got a little chewed on the top from hitting the tarmac when starting without center stand
unless you leaned it left. Such as when it stalled :-(
Click to expand...
My longer T160 folding kicker don't get anywhere near the tarmac when kicking, but with the JH magneto my motor fires up on 1/2 swing on the kick lever most of the time.
 
Stephen Hill said:
Hopefully without falling down the rabbit hole of should you EVER kickstart your Commando on the sidestand.....
It is possible to do so without beating up the bike up too much.
First you need a bike that does not lean excessively when on the sidestand.
Then you lift most of the weight off the sidestand, but it is still touching the ground, acting mostly as a safety.
I usually apply the front brake, which keeps the bike from rocking (which loads up the stop, creating wear).
With the bike held correctly, the kicking action unloads most of the pressure on the sidestand.
Never had any excessive wear or bending.
This not my regular way of starting the bike. But when needed (a stall at a stop light, for example), it works fine.
Would I start my bike on the sidestand all the time? No.
Click to expand...
I have always kicked my MK II from the sidestand. I don't see where proper kicking technique would have an affect on the sidestand.
 
Dan1950 said:
I have always kicked my MK II from the sidestand. I don't see where proper kicking technique would have an affect on the sidestand.
Click to expand...
IMproper technique does.

I've seen people throw the entire weight of the bike, AND THEIR entire weight together from vertical over to the side stand while kicking.
 
concours said:
IMproper technique does.

I've seen people throw the entire weight of the bike, AND THEIR entire weight together from vertical over to the side stand while kicking.
Click to expand...
I place my left flat on the ground with my right foot on the kicker. I hold the throttle with my right hand.

When I initiate the kick I push up on the ball of my left foot shifting as much wright as possible to my right leg while using my right hand to balance the bike which will try to shift to the right.

I shift all of my weight onto my right leg as I kick through holding onto the throttle with a light grip.

I don't think this puts more strain on the sidestand than when initially resting the weight of the bike on the stand when I park the bike.

I only use the center stand for maintenance.
 
o0norton0o said:
So,..... as a kid I didn't know shit about high performance, so I did all the stuff to make my commando a higher compression engine thinking it was going to be noticeably faster. I eliminated the base gasket, and shaved the head a few thousandths (forget how much) and I run the composite head gasket which is thinner. All this awesomeness did NOT make my bike some feared super norton, but it did make it an absolute bear to kick over. Thank god it does start pretty reliably.

Sorry I digress, I used to start it on the side stand for many years because I didn't know any better. I eventually replaced that side stand and lug because it got very sloppy. Then I started balancing the bike and kicking it while balancing on the wheels. That is not easy with a higher compression engine, so I started kicking it on the side stand again and after a few years the side stand gradually got sloppy again and I was sliding some debris under it when I parked the bike on the side stand so it would stand at a reasonable angle.

I think if all you do is park the bike on the side stand, it should last at least 20 years. Kicking the bike on the sidestand is the eventual side stand killer
Click to expand...
You should have replaced the cam with something that would compliment the raised compression and made it easier to kick..
 
Dan1950 said:
You should have replaced the cam with something that would compliment the raised compression and made it easier to kick..
Click to expand...

At the time, I was a clueless kid, I didn't understand the need to complete the whole higher performance list of requirements to improve an engine... I thought, "higher compression = more HP"... Last year, I cut up 2 kick starters that I had, brought them to my welder with a jig I had made to weld them back together making the kick lever 1.5" longer. It looks like the stock kicker but it's not. In theory it should take less effort to kick the bike over...... in theory... :cool:
 
Dan1950 said:
I have always kicked my MK II from the sidestand. I don't see where proper kicking technique would have an affect on the sidestand.
Click to expand...
If your little enough and don't stand on the left foot peg, I would agree. I watched a 220lb guy bend a stock, original 1972 kickstand buy standing on the peg with it on the side stand and more-or-less jumping to kick. The replacement stands are a little stronger I think, but no one is allowed to start any of my bikes on the side stand unless their left foot is on the ground. Running a Norton on the side stand is also something I don't allow for more than a few seconds.

I guarantee you if I do that on your bike, you'll be very lucky if kickstand bends - they are easy to replace, fixing the collapsed frame tube is harder - I weight significantly more that 220 pounds!

All but one MK3 I've worked on has had from minor to major frame tube collapse at the side-stand bracket. Changed the frame on two of them for that.
 
Dan1950 said:
I place my left flat on the ground with my right foot on the kicker. I hold the throttle with my right hand.
Click to expand...
Also, even though I'm 6'1" tall, I cannot straddle a Norton with my left foot on the ground and hope to kick it. 30" inseam (short legs). I can on my Bonneville and even on my Trident and can just barely on a 69S (lower seat).

Got to remember, not all people are created the same and not all Norton models are the same!

To start a Norton for me:
1) Center Stand
2) Stand on the timing side of the bike.
3) Kick with my right leg
4) Walk to drive side
5) Take off stand, mount and ride.

Really can't afford a bike that doesn't start and idle from cold reliably!

Looks weird but works just fine. Hip replacement in my left leg means I can't use it. My right hip replacement is better technology, and it works OK for kicking.
 
o0norton0o said:
At the time, I was a clueless kid, I didn't understand the need to complete the whole higher performance list of requirements to improve an engine... I thought, "higher compression = more HP"
Click to expand...
Actually, I can make a case for smart kid!

In general, raising the compression within reason does increase HP regardless of other factors. Adding the 2S cam provides even more HP at higher RPM, but damages performance at lower RPM - probably why Combats normally have 19T front sprockets. I've built a couple of Combats for people who asked for the 4S instead of 2S cam - less gain at the high end and less loss at the low end but stronger overall than a non-Combat 750.

You made have also gained/lost with sticking with a 30mm intake track, but still the compression did raise the power.

The 2S cam can help with kicking due to the low-end loss. It sounds like you made the equivalent of the RGM T140-style kicker - they do make kicking a little easier and so will your modification. Thiers is a little better because it sets out further from the bike while kicking so your leverage is a little better - I wish they weren't so expensive and out of stock a lot of the time!
 
marshg246 said:
Also, even though I'm 6'1" tall, I cannot straddle a Norton with my left foot on the ground and hope to kick it. 30" inseam (short legs). I can on my Bonneville and even on my Trident and can just barely on a 69S (lower seat).

Got to remember, not all people are created the same and not all Norton models are the same!

To start a Norton for me:
1) Center Stand
2) Stand on the timing side of the bike.
3) Kick with my right leg
4) Walk to drive side
5) Take off stand, mount and ride.

Really can't afford a bike that doesn't start and idle from cold reliably!

Looks weird but works just fine. Hip replacement in my left leg means I can't use it. My right hip replacement is better technology, and it works OK for kicking.
Click to expand...
Huh, I'm 5'10 and have no trouble PUTTING MY LEFT FOOT ON THE GROUND and stadling my Commando to start it.

BTW, at my best I weighed over 260#.
 
Dan1950 said:
Huh, I'm 5'10 and have no trouble PUTTING MY LEFT FOOT ON THE GROUND and stadling my Commando to start it.

BTW, at my best I weighed over 260#.
Click to expand...
Probably have longer legs! Like I said, 30" inseam. My other dimensions say I was supposed to be 6'7" (father 6'4", brother 6'5" and both 37" inseam) but my legs quit growing long before my body. Arms out stretched is 6'7"

I wish I could get back down to 280 - that's where I was from about 30 years old and I even more importantly was very strong then - not so strong at 74 :confused:
 

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