Forged M.A.P- Pistons

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You may not want to thin the top end of those rods. They are made in China and they might not be strong enough when you thin them. Morino has not only tried to copy my products with cheap Chinese knockoffs - he has even copied some of the text from the JSM website and pasted it into his rod description.

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From the JSmotorsport website:
"More power: The increase in power is a result of more dwell time at the top of the compression stroke, allowing more time for the fuel charge to burn completely and exert maximum force on the piston throughout the power stroke, This translates to more power for the amount fuel you burn."

Less Vibration: More dwell time at the top and bottom of the piston strokes means less “snap” due to the pistons not having to stop and reverse direction as quickly and abruptly as they would with a shorter rod.

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From the MAP website:
"More power! This conversion creates more power by allowing more dwell time at the top of the compression stroke. This increased dwell time provides more time for the fuel charge to burn completely and also exerts maximum force on the piston throughout the power stroke. This translates to more power for the amount fuel you burn."

"Less vibration! With more dwell time at the top and bottom of the stroke, the piston has a smoother transition and less “snap” during cycles. That's because the pistons don't have to stop and reverse direction as abruptly as they would with a shorter rod.
 
Carrillo rods last for ever and are still the best on the market.

Putting cheaper Chinese copies in your engine is a huge false economy IMHO.

We all complain about the loss of great companies these days… then take our money and throw it at China… and usually for sub standard quality !

Standard rods are very good IMO and work well for most. But if you’re in the market for Carrillos, buy the proper things and save money on peripheral farkles.

Forgive the rant. I’ll go and find my tablets.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I don’t mind pulling an engine apart so long as I improve it.

I HATE putting it all back together the same. That just seems like I’ve missed an opportunity and wasted my time !
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I'm gonna take some convincing.....that you ever took a motor apart and put it back together exactly the same! o_O
 
acotrel said:
I had been thinking about Jim Schmidt's light pistons and longer rods. They seem like a very good idea. However my concern would be about finding an alternative supplier, if Jim went out of business and I buggered a piston. With MAP, their customer base might be larger and they might carry more stock. My preference in pistons is always Mahle, but how can you buy them ?
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Al, if you think I am being rude I am not. I am trying to be realistic here because I don't think you are.

Probability says Jim will be selling pistons and rods longer than you are in a position to buy them!

I actually Asked Jim this question myself when I first ordered stuff from him (Rods and pistons) in 2013/2014. He said he would be selling for some time yet. He is still at it in 2022!

And looking at his post re part numbers should give you confidence to buy. Get some, build the motor, and please get someone to ride it.

I last rode my bike in 2021, I shall ride it in 2022, maybe even 2023, but if I want to keep it I shan't be waiting 10 years before getting someone else on it.
 
Hello Together,
don't miss- understand me: I will never ever glue a valve guide into its bore. That's what I would call botch or junk, what ever you like to call it. They are always press- fitted with an oversize of the guide of 0,03mm.
This glue is used for thread- locking inserts into the cylinder head in case 850- guides were initially used. I reduce the guide bore using inserts with a M18x1, M17x1.These inserts have an 8mm bore for finding the contact- point between the rocker and the valve. For everyone interested I have a drawing how it is done. Just drop be a note and I send it to you by E.Mail.
For myself I have prepared a RH10 cylinder- head using these inserts.
Best Regards
Klaus
 
Fast Eddie said:
Carrillo rods last for ever and are still the best on the market.

Putting cheaper Chinese copies in your engine is a huge false economy IMHO.

We all complain about the loss of great companies these days… then take our money and throw it at China… and usually for sub standard quality !

Standard rods are very good IMO and work well for most. But if you’re in the market for Carrillos, buy the proper things and save money on peripheral farkles.

Forgive the rant. I’ll go and find my tablets.
Click to expand...
Hello again,
well, "Chinese Copies".
Believe me I know one or two things about quality. I once served my company as a mechanical design engineer and later a sales engineer. As a sales engineer my company even got one of my ideas patented. Just Google: "Klaus- Dieter Monning Patent".
Anyway, when I pressed the small end bush out, I measured the bore in the conrod. Yes, the bore of the bush wasn't oval by not even 0,01mm (measured with a Swiss TESA internal micrometer). The internal diameter of bush itself was, but that was due to wear of the bush and not a distortion of the conrod. I suspect that initially the bush to wrist-pin clearance was something like 0,015- 0,02mm.
Norton themselves stated a clearance of 0,001" (0,025mm) for aluminium rods. I guess, when everything is heated up really well, we end up having a clearance of something like 0,03 - 0,035mm. With a steel- rod and a cold clearance of just 0,015mm it is getting really tight up there. I don't want to go into this detail here , that's another story. In any case I'd say that a clearance of just 0,015mm is way too low.
Anyway, when I pressed the old bush out, I measured the small end bore in the conrod and found it absolutely round and parallel. There wasn't a bit of a ovality. By the way, the same can be said about the big end eye.
Coming to a reduced wall thickness of the small end:
The old bush was 19,05,mm (3/4"). I will get it bored to 19,5mm. That is 0,5mm bigger in diameter than original, or in other words 0,25mm in radius. So the upper portion is thinned by these 0,25mm (0,01"). I think that doesn't do much harm.
Is the conrod made I China?
I don't know. Morino states on his website that it is made in the US. I also know that there are many companies in the US, manufacturing conrods of similar design then Carillo. If his conrods are made in China, Morino is telling lies and this again is a criminal act. He could be prosecuted. If I was him, I wouldn't risk that.
There is something else: I'm not a real fan of Chinese products, but when we exported our machines to China their quality control was just as strict as the German ones I know.
Also, if Volkswagen for example produces conrods in China (which they do) they are asking for exactly the same quality as in their German production lines. Also the machines are exactly identical to the ones they are using all over the world (incl. automatic loading equipment). So, I'm absolutely sure that in China they can produce the same quality as in Japan, Germany or in the US. Well, they can, but will they? I don't know.
Please don't under- estimate Chinese or Indian products, they can be of identical quality as ours.
Best Regards
Klaus
 
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I agree Klaus. If the company is good the product will tend be of good quality, wherever it is made. The export of jobs is another subject. I'll leave that one alone!
When GM started producing cars in Mexico there was quite an uproar in America over the idea of these "low quality Mexican GMs" that would be produced there.
In reality Consumer testing reliability studies showed that the Mexican GMs were better built than same model US built GMs.
Brembo is considered a high quality brake component manufacturer. They have enormous factories in China.
Chances are if you have Brembo brakes on your machine, part or all of the system was manufactured in China.
The unknown brand stuff from China is still very sketchy for quality, in my experience. On the other hand, it's not great from other countries either, we just see most of it coming from China.

Glen
 
Hey Klaus,

My post wasn’t a direct pop at you, just at the whole cheap Chinese shit situation.

I too have worked with large OEMs inc at their sites in China. Of course China CAN produce quality, and indeed they do, just look at their military hardware !

But there are millions of enterprises flooding the global market with shit too! And what’s worse, is they know it, and don’t care in the slightest. Sometimes the loss of quality makes the part unfit for purpose, and yet when you look at it, you can’t even understand why, as doing it correctly wouldn’t have been a great deal more effort or cost!

And they don’t make a small batch… they flood the market with this dodgy part, filling retailer inventories around the world, where they linger and find their way to customers for YEARS to come!

It pisses me off.

And it pisses me off even more that folk buy this stuff, then justify it as being ‘ok for the price’ when the truth is that it is just not ok at all, and then bemoaning the fact that the traditional / good quality suppliers are going to the wall…

I’m due another dose of tablets about now though…
 
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Japan was doing the same thing in the 50s/60s.
We know how that all turned out.
I'm running Japanese Honda rings on my English made Omega Vincent pistons . I threw away the supplied Omega rings . The Honda rings alone cost more than the Omega pistons, pins and rings!
It was initially painful but well worth the money spent as they bike is still excellent on leakdown after 60,000 fairly hard miles.

Glen
 
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Regardless of what Marino says - the MAP connecting rods are made in Chongqing China. "High Cotton MotoWorks" as mentinoned in the MAP rod decription is run by Rod Harms who is the go between with China. I have contacted Rod Harms and he told me he has an exclusive arrangement with Marino. I never said the rods were poor quality. I said they were "cheap Chinese knockoffs". I still don't think its a good idea to thin the small ends and weaken them.

I have attempted to contact Marino by phone and by his email address and asked him not to plagiarize my website text but he has not responded. He is undercutting me with cheaper knockoff copies (not exact copies). I have heard from several of his customers that his cheaper pistons have a problem with collapsing and distorting at the skirts. There is nothing I can do about this situation so I will continue to provide Carrillo rods and Wiseco/JE pistons in hopes of attracting customers who want these high quality brands.

Worntorn - note that the rings that come with Wiseco and JE pistons are NPR (Nippon piston ring) rings made in Japan. With the gapless rings I'm getting less than or about 1% leakdown after 40,000 miles.
 
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Fast Eddie said:
Hey Klaus,

My post wasn’t a direct pop at you, just at the whole cheap Chinese shit situation.

I too have worked with large OEMs inc at their sites in China. Of course China CAN produce quality, and indeed they do, just look at their military hardware !

But there are millions of enterprises flooding the global market with shit too! And what’s worse, is they know it, and don’t care in the slightest. Sometimes the loss of quality makes the part unfit for purpose, and yet when you look at it, you can’t even understand why, as doing it correctly wouldn’t have been a great deal more effort or cost!

And they don’t make a small batch… they flood the market with this dodgy part, filling retailer inventories around the world, where they linger and find their way to customers for YEARS to come!

It pisses me off.

And it pisses me off even more that folk buy this stuff, then justify it as being ‘ok for the price’ when the truth is that it is just not ok at all, and then bemoaning the fact that the traditional / good quality suppliers are going to the wall…

I’m due another dose of tablets about now though…
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Two rants today. Maybe you need to up the dosage?;)
 
Hello,
Who was doing a rant today? Well, I guess If we meet someday, somewhere in Europe a full barrel of Guiness couldn't set us drunk.
Good Night
Klaus
 
When Australia manufactured engineered products, most of the quality was not as good as current Chinese manufacture. The only Australian factories which produced quality were government-owned defence factories. However production runs were invariably too short to be profitable. Also, for political reasons, Australian government owned businesses were never allowed to compete with private industry. The Chinese manufacturers have the best of both worlds - government-owned and allowed to compete. They CAN produce quality, but 'fit for purpose' is good enough in most cases. Forget 'attention to detail'.
All of my power tools are Chinese - they do the job, but they are not flash.
If I was buying Chinese conrods, I would have reservations about the quality of the steel. It might be as bad as Australian-made steel.
 
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@acotrel

Well I can only talk about mechanical machines and i can assure you that Repco cam grinders had and still do have a marvelous reputation even all the way to the home country of Berco.

Kind regards Christian
 
SteveA said:
I actually Asked Jim this question myself when I first ordered stuff from him (Rods and pistons) in 2013/2014. He said he would be selling for some time yet. He is still at it in 2022!

And looking at his post re part numbers should give you confidence to buy. Get some, build the motor, and please get someone to ride it.
Click to expand...
Another way to look at it is that there are part numbers on the bottom of every piston. You can't order the rods or pistons directly from the manufacturer (people have tried). But if I'm gone then the manufacture has no reason to protect me and at that point you can order them directly - and when I'm gone (in about 30 years) I certainly won't care.
 
Hello All,
I believe Klaus and commend him for his sharing information. I am one who purchased MAP short pistons/long rods but for a 750 Commando.
Does anyone know, or speculation, whether the 750 items share the same deficiencies that Klaus pointed out?

Thanks,
Ed
 
Hello Ed,
I'm not 100% sure about the stiffness of 73mm- bore pistons in comparison to 77mm- pistons, both with the same wall- thickness. I would say, that, with the same wall- thickness, the smaller pistons will definately be stiffer than the 850- pistons, and so may also be less prone to distortion. I will not give a comment about if they are stiff enough for your job or not. They might be, but they may also not be. There is no guarantee. I nevertheless would say that the 850- pistions may not have been sufficiently tested in long distance tests.
Nevertheless, let me say one word about the shorter pistons. Unfortunately these are my after- thoughts:
The shorter pistons have one big advantage. They are a lot lighter and because of a smaller angle of centre- line conrod to the centre- line cylinder (at appr. half stroke) they also have a lot less normal forces (and so less friction) towards the cylinder- wall.
Yet, they also have a big disadvantage: Their guide- length is a lot shorter in comparison to the standrad-length pistons. This also means that the tendency for the longer pistons for tilting is a lot less critical, which today may lead me to a different decision if it comes to the purchse of the shorter pistons.
Jim Schmidt's pistons are longer than M.A.P's and also a lot stiffer. That's why, now I bought Jim Schmidt's. Now I have the problem, that I have to bore the small- end bush to 18mm ( and also boring the small- end in the conrod itself), which is another problem and a job for a very specialized company.
As I said, I have done a lot of research about my M.A.P 850- pistones. And these have definately failed, because of more and more tilting and the resulting distortion. The more distortion, the more tilting, which finally resulted in more and more oil burning.
If you wish I can send you the complete story about my 850- pistons.
Best Regards
Klaus
 
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