Follower scar oil tests (2018)

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What about oil in a diesel engine? It turns black very fast but lives a long life in an engine between usual factory recommended intervals.
Those engines last forever.
 
elefantrider said:
What about oil in a diesel engine? It turns black very fast but lives a long life in an engine between usual factory recommended intervals.
Those engines last forever.
Click to expand...

Diesel is oil. Petrol is solvent. So when diesel mixes with the engine oil it is less of an issue compared to petrol.
 
Diesel oil has higher detergent levels that oils for petrol engine, at typical 23:1 compression ratio there is more piston blowby and also with diesel more carbon eg black smoke. The carbon is what turns the diesel oil black and it stays in suspension as the carbon particles are smaller than the oil filter element gaps and the detergents are doing their job keeping them in the oil.
 
On the diesel oil theme again my company samples engine oil at every PMI , if the reading is outside the parameters the filters only are changed. & Oil level topped up. The vehicle is put back to work and rechecked after 7 days.
If the figure is still outside parameters only then is the oil changed.
A sample is also sent for spectral analysis to see if anything else is going on.. metal, water, fuel contamination etc.
We have engines where the oil hasn't been changed fo 250,000 +miles
 
I worked for British Rail, and we sampled oil and sent failed samples to Shell for Analysis before changing. The Shell scientist insisted that there was no difference between oils for petrol or Diesel engines it was just the packaging. Incidentally I used to buy Castrol oil in bulk, the bulk GTX 20/50 was called fleet oil and quite clearly stated on drum “suitable for petrol and Diesel engines”. The Castrol Magnatec was called ConstabPS (as supplied to police garages) and also stated on the drums “ suitable for petrol and Diesel engines”. Times and oils have changed over the decades, but most Commando engines haven’t! I use Shell rimula (was rotella)in all my engines Commando, Laverda jota, Suzuki Bandit and Mercedes c220 Diesel always have. There might be better oil out there but I have confidence due to 40years of experience and live in a temperate climate with speed limits ( and my own skill limits) that don’t stress engines to the max very often. Remember any oil is better than no oil!
 
Frankly, IMO, we change oil far too often, mostly because of Jiffy Lube and others who want to sell oil/oil changes. As noted, most fleet and professional marine users base oil changes on oil samples, not some arbitrary "common knowledge" about how often oil changes need to be performed. Seems to me if someone was THAT interested (I'm not), they could do periodic oil samples and get a real picture of how the oil is reacting in the Norton and use that data for "generalizing" on oil change intervals - at least with the specific oil involved.

Re "recommended" change interval... I bought a new Porsche 911 in 2000. Local jobbers said the oil/filter should be changed every 3000 miles; Porsche said it needed to be changed every 15,000 miles. I went with Porsche's guidelines and when I sold it at 130k miles, the PPI that the new owner performed prior to purchase showed normal compression/leakdown, no oil leaks/smoke, etc... ;)
 
I had a company car some years ago that used 0/30 ”long life” oil and needed to be changed only every 20,000 miles. However it was like dishwater and the engine would use, burn or whatever, a litre every 1000 miles. So, at the end of 20k miles it had used up 20 litres of oil - I don’t suppose it really ever needed to be changed. when I left the employment and bought my own car with almost the same engine, it used 5/40 oil and never used a drop in over 120,000 miles.
 
Many moons ago working on & operating E290 Cummings engines the service literature of the time clearly stated if oil consumption was over X the oil didn't need to be changed... and when these big cam engines topped a million Kim's they were burning it.... so apart from filter changes & regular top up that's all that got done
 
lazyeye6 said:
Given the hours and hours of unpaid time and money that Jim has generously donated to his oil analysis for the benefit of the Norton community,
it might be a bit much to be asking him to start an entirely new evaluation. But, yes, it would be interesting to know which oils are best to
run for 3000 miles and why.
Me? I use Mobil1 20-50 V-Twin and change it every 1000 miles.
Click to expand...
I change the oil in my bikes every year in spite they havent been running for any long and thats earlier than 1000 miles . As for the question I was interested in if the best tested oil could possibly loose its properties very quick after use or if if it stays good for some time. Many of the good oils have high zincadditives but to add additives doesnt always do an oil better. A comparision of two good oils to see the all new properties condition and a running condition properties would be interesting. I dont have any suggestion to how long it should have been run and it also depends on how good the engine is in blowby, carb settings running rich etc. Maybe this has been done. I race Nortons and that motor is running in very hard conditions at high temperatures and the oil needs oilcooler to cope with the conditions to do its work with friction lubricating cleaning and else. And yes I appreciate the work and its a very generous test
 
Last week I drained this out of the Triton

Follower scar oil tests (2018)

And replaced it with this
Follower scar oil tests (2018)


And I think it may be running more smoothly.
 
myjota said:
I worked for British Rail, and we sampled oil and sent failed samples to Shell for Analysis before changing. The Shell scientist insisted that there was no difference between oils for petrol or Diesel engines it was just the packaging. Incidentally I used to buy Castrol oil in bulk, the bulk GTX 20/50 was called fleet oil and quite clearly stated on drum “suitable for petrol and Diesel engines”. snipped
Click to expand...

There are differences. However, a superior oil product can be blended to meet the SAE specifications for both types. The Shell man was commenting on Shell's products, not lubricating oil in general.
Charlie K
 
MexicoMike said:
Frankly, IMO, we change oil far too often, mostly because of Jiffy Lube and others who want to sell oil/oil changes. As noted, most fleet and professional marine users base oil changes on oil samples, not some arbitrary "common knowledge" about how often oil changes need to be performed. Seems to me if someone was THAT interested (I'm not), they could do periodic oil samples and get a real picture of how the oil is reacting in the Norton and use that data for "generalizing" on oil change intervals - at least with the specific oil involved.

Re "recommended" change interval... I bought a new Porsche 911 in 2000. Local jobbers said the oil/filter should be changed every 3000 miles; Porsche said it needed to be changed every 15,000 miles. I went with Porsche's guidelines and when I sold it at 130k miles, the PPI that the new owner performed prior to purchase showed normal compression/leakdown, no oil leaks/smoke, etc... ;)
Click to expand...
Mike,
I agree that "quick oil change" businesses recommendations are only to keep themselves making money. Generalizing data for a revised oil change interval won't work. The fleet operators who change oil and/or filters based on oil analysis do that analysis for each individual truck for a reason. That's because the conditions for each truck can vary. The oil that Porsche recommends has higher specifications than most synthetic oils. Go to your local parts vendor. Compare the price of Mobil 1 to Mobil 1 European specification. It's double the price, but has longer drain intervals, by both mileage and time.
One thing that I have not seen mentioned [I have not read every post] is that the vehicle manufacturers also have a calendar time limit for oil changes. That is because the anti corrosion package in oil, has a finite life span. Oil is sort of like canned vegetables in a way. In a sealed can, they both last a long time. However, once the can is opened and exposed to the air [oxygen] the life of the contents starts to count down. Another advantage of draining the oil in a gasoline engine is to get rid of any particles in the oil or sitting in the sump.
Porsche also recommends a certain calendar life for oil changes. On many Porsches [and other Euro cars] that is 2 years. Most other manufacturers use either a 6 month or 12 month calendar limit. This limit is based on how long the anti-corrosion package will last.
Our Norton engines are designed with the camshaft set high in the crankcases. Lycoming opposed cylinder piston aircraft engines also use this design. The #1 failure mode of a Lycoming small aircraft engine is lack of use. This allows the oil to drain off the camshaft. The cam and lifters then rust. Upon start up, they are damaged. To combat this, they use additive packages with high concentrations of zinc and phosphorous. Lycoming calls for oil changes every 25 hour or 4 months on engines without a modern oil filter. The recommendation goes up to 50 hours or 4 months with a modern oil filter. [This is for normally aspired Lycoming engines] Note the engine operation hour limit goes up, but not the calendar limit. Depending on the speed of the plane, 25 hours equates to 4,000 to 10, 000 miles. Both Shell and Chevron make special "storage" oils, intended to be installed into an engine when little or no usage is expected during the 4 month time limit. Lycoming has a service bulletin which calls for the addition of an additive [LW-16702] to be used in engines which had the worst camshaft issues. This additive is so good, that several aircraft oil manufacturers already formulate it into their oils.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/The Use of Lycoming LW-16702 Oil Additive.pdf

Camguard is an aftermarket company that sells a similar additive. It meets the Lycoming spec. Perhaps this would be a good product to test? Not a useful additive for the racing crowd, but very useful to those who don't ride their bikes as often [once or twice a week, depending on climate] as they should. See

https://aslcamguard.com/

Bottom line, ride your bike regularly. Many of us should be changing our oil, not based on mileage, but on calendar time, to prevent engine damage due to corrosion. For owners where riding is seasonal, might a switch to aircraft storage oil be a good idea, during the winter?
Aircraft airframe & engine manufacturers consider coastal areas, most prone for causing corrosion. Florida and New Zealand are considered the worst! Naturally, I live in Florida. You guys who live in arid climates are reading this and wondering "What the h3ll is he talking about, corrosion?" Does Norton dictate a calendar time limit for oil changes?

Charlie K
 
chaztuna said:
Mike,
I agree that "quick oil change" businesses recommendations are only to keep themselves making money. Generalizing data for a revised oil change interval won't work. The fleet operators who change oil and/or filters based on oil analysis do that analysis for each individual truck for a reason. That's because the conditions for each truck can vary. The oil that Porsche recommends has higher specifications than most synthetic oils. Go to your local parts vendor. Compare the price of Mobil 1 to Mobil 1 European specification. It's double the price, but has longer drain intervals, by both mileage and time.
One thing that I have not seen mentioned [I have not read every post] is that the vehicle manufacturers also have a calendar time limit for oil changes. That is because the anti corrosion package in oil, has a finite life span. Oil is sort of like canned vegetables in a way. In a sealed can, they both last a long time. However, once the can is opened and exposed to the air [oxygen] the life of the contents starts to count down. Another advantage of draining the oil in a gasoline engine is to get rid of any particles in the oil or sitting in the sump.
Porsche also recommends a certain calendar life for oil changes. On many Porsches [and other Euro cars] that is 2 years. Most other manufacturers use either a 6 month or 12 month calendar limit. This limit is based on how long the anti-corrosion package will last.
Our Norton engines are designed with the camshaft set high in the crankcases. Lycoming opposed cylinder piston aircraft engines also use this design. The #1 failure mode of a Lycoming small aircraft engine is lack of use. This allows the oil to drain off the camshaft. The cam and lifters then rust. Upon start up, they are damaged. To combat this, they use additive packages with high concentrations of zinc and phosphorous. Lycoming calls for oil changes every 25 hour or 4 months on engines without a modern oil filter. The recommendation goes up to 50 hours or 4 months with a modern oil filter. [This is for normally aspired Lycoming engines] Note the engine operation hour limit goes up, but not the calendar limit. Depending on the speed of the plane, 25 hours equates to 4,000 to 10, 000 miles. Both Shell and Chevron make special "storage" oils, intended to be installed into an engine when little or no usage is expected during the 4 month time limit. Lycoming has a service bulletin which calls for the addition of an additive [LW-16702] to be used in engines which had the worst camshaft issues. This additive is so good, that several aircraft oil manufacturers already formulate it into their oils.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/The Use of Lycoming LW-16702 Oil Additive.pdf

Camguard is an aftermarket company that sells a similar additive. It meets the Lycoming spec. Perhaps this would be a good product to test? Not a useful additive for the racing crowd, but very useful to those who don't ride their bikes as often [once or twice a week, depending on climate] as they should. See

https://aslcamguard.com/

Bottom line, ride your bike regularly. Many of us should be changing our oil, not based on mileage, but on calendar time, to prevent engine damage due to corrosion. For owners where riding is seasonal, might a switch to aircraft storage oil be a good idea, during the winter?
Aircraft airframe & engine manufacturers consider coastal areas, most prone for causing corrosion. Florida and New Zealand are considered the worst! Naturally, I live in Florida. You guys who live in arid climates are reading this and wondering "What the h3ll is he talking about, corrosion?" Does Norton dictate a calendar time limit for oil changes?

Charlie K
Click to expand...
I use Cam Guard in my plane. It's got a Continental O470 engine which is not as susceptible to cam and lifter wear due to the fact the cam is below the crankshaft thus gets more lubrication. Having said that, I just changed all the lifters due some spalling; something you can't do on a Lycoming without splitting the case. The bigger continental uses barrel lifters like a car while the Lycomings use mushroom lifters. I'm hoping next filter inspection turns up no lifter pieces. Strangely, oil analysis comes back normal as the spalled pieces are caught in the filter but not tiny wear particles that turn up in oil samples. If the harder cam starts to wear it will leave a signature in the sample. Fingers crossed.

I believe I'll start using cam guard in the Norton.
 
Whew, what a read! Took 2 days.
Not sure how or why I missed it the first time around.
Makes me wonder what the XPR has on the HPS.
According to this test, nothing. Obviuously more suited for rollers.
Learned a lot, blows a lot of old myths.
Quite disappointed in the Kendall GT1 as it is the spec'd oil for another application.
And I have a whole case.........
Looks like I missed the HD 50wt, apparently the test was invalidated.
Looking through the RP website I ponder how good their other products are.
IE, oil filters, chain lube etc.
Interesting how they say 'After warranty has expired' to use their products.

Regadless, I'm a believer now.
Just ordered up a 6 pack of HPS and 3 Break in's.
It's available from RP direct, free shipping here in the states.
royalpurpledirect.com

HPS 20W-50 High Performance Street

Royal Purple HPS 20W-50 High Performance Street is specifically formulated to maximize performance and meet the demands of high-performance engines.
royalpurpledirect.com royalpurpledirect.com
 
Last edited:
MichaelB said:
snipped
Interesting how they say 'After warranty has expired' to use their products.

Regadless, I'm a believer now.
Just ordered up a 6 pack of HPS and 3 Break in's.
It's available from RP direct, free shipping here in the states.
royalpurpledirect.com

HPS 20W-50 High Performance Street

Royal Purple HPS 20W-50 High Performance Street is specifically formulated to maximize performance and meet the demands of high-performance engines.
royalpurpledirect.com royalpurpledirect.com
Click to expand...

Their oils don't meet the current SAE specs, because it has to much zinc/phosphorus anti wear additive. Those are the additives that protect the cam and lifters. Those additives also screw up modern catalytic converters, so current SAE specs call for a lot less of it. Needless to say, we don't care about emissions devices that don't exist on our motorcycles.
 
chaztuna said:
For owners where riding is seasonal, might a switch to aircraft storage oil be a good idea, during the winter?

Charlie K
Click to expand...
Aeroshell W100 Plus 50 wt failed about 1 minute into the initial warm-up period in Jim’s oil test. On the other hand the Aeroshell Sport plus 4 Synthetic performed well. It would be interesting to know if Aeroshell 2XN preservation oil/additive improved the Aeroshell W100 Plus performance in the test protocol or whether it simply alters oil rheology to improve cling/resist draining during long term storage, or simply contains a superior corrosion inhibition package? Can aero oils contain any ZDDP or are all heavy metal additives a "no-no" in aviation?
 
I did an oil change this afternoon, switched to RP 20-50. And just this moment read your post!
 
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