Follower scar oil tests (2018)

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Brooking 850 said:
Thanks Jim, not the answer I was looking for for my race bike , Ill look for a better one.
How is the Torco MPZ looking?
Regards Mike
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I have tested the Torco 20W50 with good results.
I ordered in 10w40 also and it shows as having been delivered -but it's not here, that I have found yet anyway.
 
I have discovered a technical issue that has skewed some of the results posted in the first batch -including Mobil 1 and Royal Purple XPR and probably some more.

It seems a baffle I had used in the reservoir on the early tests to keep the mist down was also starving the arbor race for oil. A few of the results posted are low because of that.

I will be retesting several of the oils to make sure they are accurate and posting updates as needed. Jim.
 
Mr. Rick said:
Good catch!
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Yeah, It made a big difference in the Mobil 1 V-Twin test but no difference in the Royal Purple XPR test.
The Mobil 1 now consistently beats the Royal Purple now that I am running the tests at a controlled temperature.

It just depends on how far down I had pushed the baffle. At least I only used the baffle for a few of the tests and then I found a better way of controlling the mist.
But I still have more tests to re-check.
 
Jim,

I have been chewing on this for a while watching this thread with interest. Thinking out loud as they say.

I am not sure how fast your arbor is spinning and the way I am wrapping my head around the test procedure that you are performing, is for oil film testing in the molecular level to still maintain an oil wedge at the stellite pad of your lifter during increased load to the lifter. Pressure increases until metal-to-metal contact is reached and oil is judged by the (Time, Heat and Pressure) to failure. Correct me if I am wrong.

But that is not how a flat or radius lifter behaves in a Norton. If your Arbor is spinning at (lets say 1800 rpm simulating cam speed”) the cam will be rotating 30 times per second. Edit: ( I reread Post #88 and your Arbor is spinning at 3425 RPM that means the cam revolves 57 revs per second) At one point in the revolution there will be 0 pressure on the cam lobe with 0.006” to 0.013” tappet clearance before the cam lobe picks the lifter up again, all based on cam design per rotation. The valve tappet clearance and oil wedge may become reestablished on some oils, which are failing this test process. So when you squeeze the oil wedge to the point that there is no more hydroplaning from the oil being tested using your scar method, it is like the tappet adjuster is cranked to have 0 or No cam tappet clearances with continuous heavy pressure applied to the lifter. It may be proving some oils will stand up to this particular test but when used in a real engine situations with flat lifters there may be oils that would be totally adequate. May be I am alone here way out in left field on this thought process along with MexicoMike's first page comments? Please send me some of your links on your (“after having a cam failure and getting sucked into reading way to much crap about oils”) because I am still being skeptical with the test procedure and whether it will be beneficial to our engines with out going overboard or selecting a product where other less expensive alternatives are the better choice in the real McCoy environment in our engines. Let me know what you think about this.

Cheers,

Thomas
 
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CanukNortonNut said:
Jim,

I have been chewing on this for a while watching this thread with interest. Thinking out loud as they say.

I am not sure how fast your arbor is spinning and the way I am wrapping my head around the test procedure that you are performing, is for oil film testing in the molecular level to still maintain an oil wedge at the stellite pad of your lifter during increased load to the lifter. Pressure increases until metal-to-metal contact is reached and oil is judged by the (Time, Heat and Pressure) to failure. Correct me if I am wrong.

But that is not how a flat or radius lifter behaves in a Norton. If your Arbor is spinning at (lets say 1800 rpm simulating cam speed”) the cam will be rotating 30 times per second. At one point in the revolution there will be 0 pressure on the cam lobe with 0.006” to 0.013” tappet clearance before the cam lobe picks the lifter up again, all based on cam design per rotation. The valve tappet clearance and oil wedge may become reestablished on some oils, which are failing this test process. So when you squeeze the oil wedge to the point that there is no more hydroplaning from the oil being tested using your scar method, it is like the tappet adjuster is cranked to have 0 or No cam tappet clearances with continuous heavy pressure applied to the lifter. It may be proving some oils will stand up to this particular test but when used in a real engine situations with flat lifters there may be oils that would be totally adequate. May be I am alone here way out in left field on this thought process along with MexicoMike's first page comments? Please send me some of your links on your (“after having a cam failure and getting sucked into reading way to much crap about oils”) because I am still being skeptical with the test procedure and whether it will be beneficial to our engines with out going overboard or selecting a product where other less expensive alternatives are the better choice in the real McCoy environment in our engines. Let me know what you think about this.

Cheers,

Thomas
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There is no way I am directly comparing the pressure on the follower on my tester to the pressure on the follower in a real engine.

Beyond that, both my tester and a real camshaft operate on a wedge of oil in a line contact situation. A cam to follower never sees anything more than a line of contact.
A real engines follower can handle more pressure because the line moves across the face of the follower so localized heating is not as bad as it is with my setup, but it is still just a line in mixed lubrication depending on the speed and position of the lobe.

My arbor is turning 3425 RPM.

Time is not involved in my data, I have found as long as the temp is maintained the tester will run at a pressure just below the point of failure for an indeterminate amount of time. [hours]

But just seconds after the load reaches a threshold the metal to metal contact begins and failure is immediate. This threshold is one thing I am looking for and logging.

The other thing I am looking for is an oil that does not create a lot of heat before that threshold has been reached.

This has been very obvious both in the tester and the spintron. Some oils require heavy cooling in either application to keep them from overheating and failing.
Others will run with no cooling at all, both in the spintron and the tester.

This I am logging with both the cooling fan duty cycle and the follower temp.

I feel pretty confident that what I am seeing applies pretty well to a Norton motor. Jim

PS, The only thing I can think of that may be better is time and miles in a real motor. The only oil that I can say has passed that test is Mobil 1 V-Twin oil- and it is still among my favorite picks and tests very favorably.

EDIT
In the early tests, I was using a set weight on the load arm and watching the time till failure. There was nothing to control the heat.

I realized what I was testing using that method was how much heat was being generated by friction. IE- how long it took for the oil to get hot enough to fail. This is important as far as knowing how much extra heat is added to the engine from friction but, it was not really testing the load handling capacity.

This made the ultra low friction oils [like Royal Purple] really look good.

Since a real engine does have heating and cooling capacity it made more sense to control the oil temp in the normal engines operating range and then watch the follower pressure at failure -not the time.
 
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comnoz said:
The only oil that I can say has passed that test is Mobil 1 V-Twin oil- and it is still among my favorite picks and tests very favorably.
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Jim, clearly Mobil 1 V Twin is a good choice, regardless of further testing it will suite many, but, as said before this product is not easily available in Europe.

The only way to get it is to buy on line from the US, with associated extra costs and delay. It is the same with most of the other smaller company offerings that do well in tests but are not stocked outside the US.

The 15w50 is easliy available but you have said you have reservations compared to the V Twin, maybe a later test will confirm this.

Your effort with the tests is greatly appreciated by us all, and of course for your personal decision making being available across the US is key.

Maybe a contact with an oil supplier in Europe can give a clue to the potential stocking of these oils in Europe? Anyone have any contacts?
 
Yeah, I'm using Mobil 1 15w50 and wonder what your reservations are about this oil. I thought it's specs looked good.
Jaydee
 
jaydee75 said:
Yeah, I'm using Mobil 1 15w50 and wonder what your reservations are about this oil. I thought it's specs looked good.
Jaydee
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15-50 is an SN rated car oil. It has a zinc limit of 800 and is not designed for temperatures beyond those seen in a water cooled car engine.
I will pick some up for a test. Jim
 
Jim, there may be two types of Mobil 1 15/50 ?
In the UK we have motorcycle specific Mobil 1 15/50 Racing 4 T, which states many more ratings than SN
sam
 
SteveA said:
Jim, clearly Mobil 1 V Twin is a good choice, regardless of further testing it will suite many, but, as said before this product is not easily available in Europe.

The only way to get it is to buy on line from the US, with associated extra costs and delay. It is the same with most of the other smaller company offerings that do well in tests but are not stocked outside the US.

The 15w50 is easliy available but you have said you have reservations compared to the V Twin, maybe a later test will confirm this.

Your effort with the tests is greatly appreciated by us all, and of course for your personal decision making being available across the US is key.

Maybe a contact with an oil supplier in Europe can give a clue to the potential stocking of these oils in Europe? Anyone have any contacts?
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Is Torco oil available in Europe? It works well, as does Motul.

I have Penrite on the way for testing.

I would be glad to test more common European oils if I know what to test and can get them.
 
trident sam said:
Jim, there may be two types of Mobil 1 15/50 ?
In the UK we have motorcycle specific Mobil 1 15/50 Racing 4 T, which states many more ratings than SN
sam
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That oil may work OK.

I suspect it is designed for a more modern engine with lower follower loads and water cooling. Of course some of the other high testing oils are too.

I will see if I can source some.

10-40 4t is easy to get but I do not find a 15-50 4t available here. Some suppliers show it was available once but now out of stock.
 
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comnoz said:
Is Torco oil available in Europe? It works well, as does Motul.

I have Penrite on the way for testing.

I would be glad to test more common European oils if I know what to test and can get them.
Click to expand...

Jim

Yes Motul 20W60 300V Le Mans is readily available in the UK and as they are a French company should be okay in most of Europe.
UK supplier for example https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-866-mo...60-ester-synthetic-racing-car-engine-oil.aspx

Also Torco TR1 20W50 Premium Blend is available in the UK.
Example UK supplier https://www.nimbusmotorsport.com/products/view-product/torco-tr-1r-premium-blend-racing-oil/

Donation made towards this excellent project.

Andy
 
Where does one find the best US price on Mobil 1 v twin ?
Also, is VR1 one of the oils to be retested?


Glen
 
comnoz said:
That oil may work OK.

I suspect it is designed for a more modern engine with lower follower loads and water cooling. Of course some of the other high testing oils are too.

I will see if I can source some.

10-40 4t is easy to get but I do not find a 15-50 4t available here. Some suppliers show it was available once but now out of stock.
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Yes Jim the oil I am talking about is the Mobil 1 15w50 Racing 4T. The article in this attachment is a couple of years old but in the paragraph on Recomendations it reflects the same circumstance regarding the V twin oil not being imported to Europe, and the guy who wrote it is a Commando owner. This is the only oil I have used with my webcam apart from top up at the last race meeting with the Motul 7000 V Twin oil. So I don't have any at the moment, but it is on sale on Amazon.fr and from Opie in the UK.

I will get a look see how it has been in the engine when I tear it down in October.

Broken link removed

Though from what you say I still need to keep looking for an alternative as if it has been dropped in the US it will probably phase out here too.
 
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Motul looks like the best option in France.

The 300V Le Mans 20W60 looks like my best performance option so far, and is readily available via Amazon if pricey at around 17€ litre.

Since I use 3.25 litres and change after 2 meetings, and use a fair amount of top up to replace what I get in my catch tanks (maybe 200ml per 20 minute track session or a litre per race meeting) so I need about 20 litres for a full season with one bike!

So I have hopes that the less expensive 7100 20w50 V twin oil is good too, at around 12€ litre.

I live in the sticks so local suppliers are tricky to find.

And this isn't really a sport for pensioners!
 
What I am taking away from this is that it is unlikely that any conventional oil formulated for a water cooled vehicle is going to stand up to requirements. I suspect that Honda power equipment oil while formulated for air cooled, flat tappet motors is not going to have the film strength needed. It might be a nice surprise but I wouldn't be hopeful.

Is it worth testing something like the CamGuard Automotive mixed at about 10:1 with some conventional oils to see if it lives up to its hype?

https://www.amazon.com/100-Oil-Addi...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GZY9DG2GG8ZQ6XJ75YEQ
 
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