Excessive 'Mayonnaise' in oil

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Hm, ridder needs, what else is there? I don't know of anything but water that whips up aerated oil that lingers like chem trails instead of evaporating out contrails like fizzy air does in oil tank or in engine nooks or on floor puddles. Modern oils have additives to resist manonnaise so some combo of extra water with less heating as reported solves it for me. Only other thing I can think of is some cleaning agent contaminate that catalysing with the oil+additives to make a type of soap that makes oilly suds w/o water. I don't get it, my buddy don't get it, apparently you don't get it and obviously a news item on forum so almost no one gets it, so ancient accademic lore till ya do, then what? Peel must payback by comfy winter night commutes and hunting plus heated summer tract days with a one in a row oil plumbing of double capacitty and special heat reducing treatments, so I don't know what to expect with blow by moisture but think a fresh air flushing may be possible. Then again Ms Peel should power in spine oil heater if needed and let honey cold oil feed the head.
 
All engines whip air into the oil and why they baffle the exit into oil tanks - spreads it out on tank wall to slow its fall to avoid carrying bubble under and for more surface area to loose the tiny bubbles and heat faster till straight oil again. It takes water or lecithin to get oil to hold faomed air for very long. Either you are witholding your knowledge on this to tease me or you don't know enough to understand w/o further study. Its not uncommon for people to heat oils or fuels before use d/t suspended water contamination unseen until engine or pump blended. A vital part of fast enough complete enough combustion in piston cycle time is presence of water vapor in the air so a significant part of water sources to account for. Besides hydrocarbon oxidation producing water as a byproduct its been found to need some water before it'll oxidize rapidly then of course spreads form there. I'm from the deep south so brain fed by white bread and mayonnaise sandwitches til i learnt better.

Excessive 'Mayonnaise' in oil

Excessive 'Mayonnaise' in oil
 
Lets face it, the mayonnaise we found in the tappet covers of Hillman Hunters and such the like was as a result of town running. The mayonnaise was very acidic as well and tended to rust the inside of the steel tappet covers.. Is this the mayonnaise the original poster has mentioned.
Hey mate if you cut your finger and dipped it in the mayonnaise, does it sting like hell. Those were the days.
Dereck
 
kerinorton said:
Sounds like your rings are worn out or you only do short runs. My experience with British cars in the good old days was they wore out quick and when they did, excessive mayonnaise built up in the tappet covers and where the breather went to the air filter, it blocked the air filter as well. The breather gases usuallyy stank as well. Do yours? You have mentioned doing up the engine, I suggest you do so.

easy to find on ebay, one aluminium catch can- but where fit it on Norton??

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/I ... directlink
easy to fit on a Austin Healey
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/P ... directlink
Fuel Filter can be a solution KING FILTER -MALPASSI is Fuel filter SEPARATOR and regulator
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ma ... edIndex=22
But again where fit it on the Norton??
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/C ... directlink
 
Since you're calling it 'Mayonnaise', have you tried whisking a bowl of new clean oil to attempt to recreate the frothing sludge that people tell me they get in their tank and lines? Hot blowby gases and parallel piston pumping makes for a great oil whisk.
Yes that was my 'logic' when I originally pondered lowering the timing case oil level.
If it was water causing the problem it would be at the bottom of the tank unless water now floats on oil in your world.
And yes, it sits in the bottom of the tank and therefore last to drain. It also builds in the top of the tank coating the inside surfaces that are not covered by oil.
Its obviously not from too much cold running. Something else is wrong. [ not shit oil is it ]. In the days when commandos were just babies we used Caltex oil. BP oil at the time behaved just like you are describing.
Using Valvoline VR1 20/50 last 6500 miles and straight 40 before that. For years I ran Amsoil 20/50 full syn but despite my confidence in it, at $85/5 litres it's pricey. Hardly got any fluff on the magnetic sump drain though and I am now getting plenty of that!! Ring/bore wear? :?
Anyway when I decant the old oil and get to the bottom of the drain container I'll see if I can weigh or measure the sludge/mayo.
Cheers everyone, appreciate the comments, we'll see what the rings look like and if that helps. Will be next year now so dont hold yr breath...
 
Keith, I hate to keep bugging you with questions as I know you have attempted to sign off on this a couple of times now, but like a lot of other threads it has taken on a life of it's own and is no longer totally the O.P.'s alone.
As I'm sure you know, that along with oil, a lot of air is returned to the oil tank from the sump. If as you suspect you over filled the tank a bit and that return outlet is under the oil level a lot of air will be blown straight into the oil. I would think this would significantly froth up the oil just as you thought. Kind of like blowing through a straw into your chocolate milk. Where is the tank vent in relation to the oil level? Perhaps this froth (mayo) is simply exiting the vent in the same way the crank case gasses were before. And if your ride was long enough, it is conceivable the entire oiltank contents could be aerated. Then this is what would be pumped through the engine. In effect recirculating crankcase blowby to a degree that the tank vent and one way valve is overwhelmed.
The engine may well need to be freshened up and you may have already torn into it but at some point if you still have the water problem just eliminate the catch bottle and valve. Quick experiment, and can't hurt.
 
Keith1069 said:
Since you're calling it 'Mayonnaise', have you tried whisking a bowl of new clean oil to attempt to recreate the frothing sludge that people tell me they get in their tank and lines? Hot blowby gases and parallel piston pumping makes for a great oil whisk.
Yes that was my 'logic' when I originally pondered lowering the timing case oil level.
If it was water causing the problem it would be at the bottom of the tank unless water now floats on oil in your world.
And yes, it sits in the bottom of the tank and therefore last to drain. It also builds in the top of the tank coating the inside surfaces that are not covered by oil.
Its obviously not from too much cold running. Something else is wrong. [ not shit oil is it ]. In the days when commandos were just babies we used Caltex oil. BP oil at the time behaved just like you are describing.
Using Valvoline VR1 20/50 last 6500 miles and straight 40 before that. For years I ran Amsoil 20/50 full syn but despite my confidence in it, at $85/5 litres it's pricey. Hardly got any fluff on the magnetic sump drain though and I am now getting plenty of that!! Ring/bore wear? :?
Anyway when I decant the old oil and get to the bottom of the drain container I'll see if I can weigh or measure the sludge/mayo.
Cheers everyone, appreciate the comments, we'll see what the rings look like and if that helps. Will be next year now so dont hold yr breath...

Your breather valve and catch bottle are both cold. That is why the water vapor exiting your engine condenses and collects in your bottle. Extra blowby from worn rings and bore will obviously compound the problem.

That is why I attach the breather valve to the engine and return the breather line to the oil tank. That way since the valve and tank are both "hot" the water does not condense out and is simply vented from the oil tank, still as vapor.

The only time I would see any "mayonnaise" around the oil tank cap on my bike was when I used to ride it to work and back repeatedly. That was a trip of only 7 miles and the tank never had a chance to get hot.
Then all it would take was a good 50 mile highway trip and any signs of water would be gone. Jim
 
Comnoz knows oil emulsification only occurs if oil not gotten hot - long enough but hobot knows it does not form in vent hoses or catch cans, they only collect it. Venting mayonnaise to tank has no effect but to re-introduce extra suspended water with corrosive non lubricating reacted -non-oil back into the system - so i think its a bad idea as tank oil will not be as hot as the stuff leaving engine where it formed in the first place. Similar to sweeping dirt under a carpet instead of being rid of it. Better if the system vented to air or a jug so at least one is alerted to the much faster spoiling oil/engine > to change out a lot more often if can't heat it up long enough almost every ride.

MIght try to insulate oil tank from air flow with material under side cover and as much at can on other side, fit SS braid hose or insulate rubber ones somehow and leave oil filter out of the circuit. Maybe also an partial air shield across down tubes. Most drastic would be opposite an oil cooller by a run of metal tube on or around a section of exhaust pipe with thermost to bypass this once oil up to temp, at least over 155" F.

If you are concerned to run w/o oil filter then oh well you have bought their sale pitch w/o understanding, so risk hurting engine way more. A large part of engine wear is not d/t friction contact directly but chemical erosion on microscopic level that loosens flakes off till pitted and galling.
 
Keith, I hate to keep bugging you with questions as I know you have attempted to sign off on this a couple of times now, but like a lot of other threads it has taken on a life of it's own and is no longer totally the O.P.'s alone.
I just don't want to keep boring you guys with it! Still I appreciate the interest but until I get a chance next year with new rings I'll not know if it's improved. For sure there is blowby and the rings were new at 24k, removed at 42k, back in at 53k and now 57k. They've done 22k. Not a huge mileage but only used this year as a temporary measure. My own fault but I didn't want to pull the engine down again when it was running fine.
I'll definitely try it as Norton designed with no aids but I do know that chunky brass valve I use does a good job otherwise. I did buy a cheapo aluminum one way designed for fuel. I'll try that as theres not much mass there (brass one is 1lb with stubs) to stay cold. Either way I'll move the valve nearer the engine but I doubt it would have made much difference as the timing case stub gets its share of emulsified oil also.
Where is the tank vent in relation to the oil level? Perhaps this froth (mayo) is simply exiting the vent in the same way the crank case gasses were before. And if your ride was long enough, it is conceivable the entire oiltank contents could be aerated.
I don't even want to think about that possibility!
Your breather valve and catch bottle are both cold. That is why the water vapor exiting your engine condenses and collects in your bottle. Extra blowby from worn rings and bore will obviously compound the problem.
That is why I attach the breather valve to the engine and return the breather line to the oil tank. That way since the valve and tank are both "hot" the water does not condense out and is simply vented from the oil tank, still as vapor.
Thanks Jim, I'm definitely convinced on that one. The only reason I started this thread was my surprise that the problem had got worse after a pretty hard and longish run. It always bugged me but like a lot of things I grew to manage it.
Thanks for everyone's input. I've learned a lot including some chemistry!! Cheers all.
 
I would like to understand comnoz advice, if any engine that makes foam d/t not long hot enough opperation how would venting too cold mess into too cold oil tank do anything to improve foaming?
Some factoids on oil nowadays to avoid such things in most cases.
9. Engine Oil Must be Non-Foaming
Because of the rapidly moving parts in an engine, oil is constantly being mixed with air. This produces foam which is a lot of air bubbles which may or may not readily collapse. These air bubbles normally rise to the surface and break, but water and other contaminants slow this process.

Foam is not a good conductor of heat, and will impair the cooling of the engine parts. Also, foam does not have the ability to carry much of a load which would result in excessive engine wear.

Foam depressant additives are used in the manufacture of automotive lubricants, to reduce the amount of foaming.

Additives
Detergents are used to perform two key functions. One is to neutralize the acidity byproducts of lubricant oxidation and thermal decomposition and the other is to keep contaminants as sludge of oxidized oil soluble. The total base number (TBN) of the detergent reflects its ability to neutralize acids.

Dispersants control contamination from low temperature operation. Both detergents and dispersants attach themselves to contaminant particles, and hold them in suspension. The suspended particles are so finely divided that they pass harmlessly between mating surfaces and through oil filters. The contamination is removed from the engine when the oil is changed.

Oxidation Inhibitors reduce oxygen attack on the lubricating base oil.

Corrosion Inhibitors protect non-ferrous metals by coating them and forming a barrier between parts and their environment.

Rust Inhibitors protect iron/steel from oxygen attack, by forming a protection screen over the surface of the metals.

Friction modifiers reduce friction by physical adsorption of polar materials on metal surfaces (fatty acids and esters, molybdenum compounds...).

Anti-Wear agents form a protective layer by chemical reaction with the metal surface (normally a metal soap).

Extreme Pressure additive also known as antiseize additive, antiscuffing additive, form a protective layer by chemical reaction with the metal surface, increasing the load at which scuffing or seizure occurs.

Foam Depressants controls the tendency for fouming. Detergent and dispersant additives can facilitate aeration of an oil which results in foaming. This can reduce the lubricating ability of the oil, and interfere with the pumping of the oil.

Viscosity Index (VI) Improvers control the viscosity of multi-grade oils. They are long-chain polymers that function by uncoiling or dissociating at elevated temperatures, increasing the oil's resistance to flow. At low temperatures, they are "tight-balls" which do not significantly increase the oils resistance to flow.

Pour Point Depressants give an oil better low temperature fluidity.

reference: http://www.mts.net/~dbrad1/index.htm#Reference
http://www.tribology-abc.com
 
hobot said:
I would like to understand comnoz advice, if any engine that makes foam d/t not long hot enough opperation how would venting too cold mess into too cold oil tank do anything to improve foaming?

I wouldn't help foaming at all. If you have foaming then all signs of a problem will go away after setting for a few hours. Oil that has foamed by aeration will not be white in color.

Mayonnaise or whatever you want to call it is just liquid water that has mixed with oil. That will not go away without application of heat. You will not usually see it inside a motorcycle engine because the entire engine runs hot enough to stop condensation.
It is different than the nasty stuff you get when antifreeze is mixed with oil. That stays nasty even when hot. We used to call that stuff baby poop and it will be spread throughout the engine.

Venting the crankcase into a cold oil tank would not help. Fortunately the oil tank will reach a high enough temperature to stop condensation within about 15 or 20 miles on a normal day.
It will take longer than that to boil out water that has accumulated but a 50 mile trip down the highway seems to do it. Jim
 
Well, a bit more news. I decanted the oil for disposal and the sludge had settled out to appx 50cc of creamy liquid in the drain bucket. Even better I got the head off and found the same issue I had a year ago. Both sides of the gasket (AN Reinz eyletted) coated in oil with dry areas around (sealed) pushrod holes and drain, so not coming from there. Head had been retorqued 4 x after replacing a faulty new intake seal a few months ago. No loose or undertorqued bolts. Head is pretty flat, maybe 002" high in the centre across outermost headbolts. Yet to check the barrel properly but I can't see this being out. I never got to the bottom of this before and still cannot see where the oil is getting in between head and barrel. The allen bolts (which were not full of oil this time) are in blind holes, the bore eyelets have no burn marks or defects. There are no dings on the barrel or head that I can see. The pistons are however damp, the RH being the worst.
Watch this space!
 
You mentioned a few posts above that you used "used rings" (were new at 24k, removed at 42k, back in at 53k and now 57k. They've done 22k) Why would you do that.. ??
 
You mentioned a few posts above that you used "used rings" (were new at 24k, removed at 42k, back in at 53k and now 57k. They've done 22k) Why would you do that.. ??
That's a good question Chris, because I do things like that :roll:
I took them out because I broke an oil ring after repainting the barrels and therefore replaced all rings. Stupidly I kept the top rings as spares, just in case. So, when the top rings looked like there was some pitting on them early this year when putting std cam back I used the old top and middle. I left the oil rings alone which now seems like a bad idea. I just measured them at over 083" and 047" in their natural position at TDC. In the unused part of the bore they were 078" & 042". 1st were 015" & 017", 2nd 018" & 022", with all measurements 005" less down the bore. This is a 34,000 mile set of barrels. At TDC new rings are averaging 012" 1st and 2nd, 023" oil which are the two piece rail type. The old worn parts which came in a GPM box are the one pc cast iron with internal expander.
The strange thing is that oil has collected around the case threads for all the thru' bolts (no sealant to speak of)and I'm wondering if this migrated up the holes into the head/barrel joint, or came down them? Who knows? All recesses for the thru' bolts were oily but the damp piston is on the side with the 'good' oil ring gap!! How badly those huge gaps would affect oil control I don't know, with the expanders in place they are pretty tight in the bores. The compression rings are a different matter, very little spring in them, compared to new at least.
There's a few things going on here but I've never seen such a huge oil ring gap. Pistons are pretty clean below the oil grooves, not much staining or evidence of substantial blowby. Some pics...........
Excessive 'Mayonnaise' in oil

Excessive 'Mayonnaise' in oil

Excessive 'Mayonnaise' in oil
 
I think at this point I'd bite the bullet, get the barrels bored to the next oversize, fit new pistons( newer type pistons) and rings in the appropriate oversize. Nice to save money but no fun when the results are mediocre. I believe nice straight bores, new piston with correct clearances top to bottom, and new rings will make your problem go away (though still not a fan of your breather system). And while your at it, I'd freshen up the head too. Just because.
 
Actually good so many of us try so many variations of sliding scale of perfection to slip shod to learn scope of what we can expect as symptoms of short cuts. Hope you only get Mayonnaise at the store from now on.
 
ring gaps are usually 3 thou per inch of bore on water cooled engines, not the hundred thou that is evident on your rings. Those pistons are the type that break up as well I was told.
Dereck

Bore it or store it.
 
It's hard to say if those are the bad pistons from the picture.
Here is a good piston.

Excessive 'Mayonnaise' in oil


Here is a bad pistons. The two expansion reliefs are joined by an slot under the oil ring.

Excessive 'Mayonnaise' in oil
 
ring gaps are usually 3 thou per inch of bore on water cooled engines, not the hundred thou that is evident on your rings. Those pistons are the type that break up as well I was told.
No worries there gents, these are the 'Hepolites' with short slots. Have contacted supplier with tongue firmly in cheek complaining about monster oil ring wear after only 15k miles. Yes he has seen this with 1 pc rings but would expect damage to ring grooves due to flutter. They seem to be ok, old and new rings still a nice fit with no tight spots or distorted lands. Yes the bores do have wear but they are no where near being totally shot. A rebore would be nice so I'll see how the ring job goes. Thanks again guys, especially Jim....and while I'm on I am going to drill that lower oil drain. See separate entry and question.
 
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