Ethanol free petrol in UK

I thought this might be better as a new thread rather than a reply in the petrol tank liner thread (?). Anybody know more?

My local Texaco garage in has put shiny new stickers (E5) on its pumps denoting their Supreme 97 octane contains up to 5% ethanol.
The cashier (who may know nothing) says the petrol is the same as its always been, just the sticker is new.
A quick search found that the Esso Supreme 97 octane is still ethanol free in most areas of the uk.
So it's back to my old friends at Exxon for me!

A note to those who remove the ethanol (?) ; remember ethanol has an octane rating of 113 so removing it will lower the octane rating of the fuel after removal by a smidgeon. How much lower will depend on how much was put into the tanker when it was
filled at the refinery.

From the Esso UK web site:

The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

Our Synergy Fuels:

• Diesel
• Supreme+ Diesel
• Unleaded
• Supreme+ Unleaded

Octane rating is about anti-knock. Alcohol in itself usually has unlimited antiknock, but it causes the fuel air mixture to be leaner when it is used as fuel in a mixture with petrol, because of it's latent heat of vaporisation . The optimum combustion conditions in your motor, are a balance between fuel/air ratio, comp. ratio, ignition advance and fuel octane rating. So once you have jetted your carbs and set your ignition advance and comp. ratio for a certain fuel, do not change the fuel unless you are prepared to start tuning again.

In my own case, I usually race using pure methanol - that removes one variable. If I was going to use anything else, it would be Elf racing fuel or Avgas, where there is good quality control. It is difficult enough to get your bike performing really well, without the fuel changing every time you buy it.

The UK would need to import ethanol to meet the target, so sort of defeats the idea, more than likely not in the fuel these days. It was a good idea at the time. You can look a the import figures and look at the sales volume of petrol and see the differences.

Unless others know differently it is not possible to buy Elf racing, Avgas or Methanol at petrol stations in the UK

Sadly Mike I don't share your views of ethanol being harmless. I had to replace my original fibreglass Interstate tank due to ethanol attacking it, at great expense.

Ref the 5% stickers on the pumps at Esso stations. They appeared at my local station and people there didn't know if the fuel had changed so I emailed Esso to ask. Their reply was that they have no plans to put ethanol in the Supreme petrol in my area, West Midlands, so I will continue to use it.

Ian

Sorry - I moved my post to which you responded to to a different 'ethanol' thread. But I'm not arguing at all that ethanol can/does damage 'original' fiberglass tanks. I have a lot of experience with boats having FG gasoline tanks. At the time, they were, by far, the best tanks for the purpose of holding gasoline for years and years - far longer than steel or AL tanks could without degradation. BUT that was in the pre-ethanol days.

I was commenting on my experience with an "ethanol-resistant" modern FG tank. We had problems with OEM Norton tanks in the day because of using 'gas dryer' periodically which was alcohol. Norton (or at least the local dealer) even put out a notice to NOT put gas drier in the tanks.

They are getting ready to force E-15 on us here. I'll use it in my car, help the corn farmers and all that. Currently have done 90K with mostly E-10, and suffered no ills. I have noticed a lot of local stations that advertise no ethanol unleaded regular and in some cases 91 octane premium. The retailers seem to want to advertise that, so it is a concern, even here in the corn belt. The one closest to my house has separate pumps and lines for the non-ethanol fuels. No chance of getting a bad mix of ethanol stuck in the hose. Probably a minor concern, but I use them whenever possible. Even my snowblower has a large sticker on the tank saying "NO E-15".

Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall)
Well, so much for my luck! Bah!

I've tried asking in petrol stations what the ethanol content of their fuel is. You'd think I was asking for the moon!
Not just the cashiers but station managers included. One I asked today, at an Esso station in the West Midlands, had not even heard of Ethanol!
A little bit of product knowledge wouldn't go amiss.

The help are simply clerks taking money for a product. I doubt there is any training other than ringing the cash register. And that doesn’t always go smooth.

MichaelB said:

The help are simply clerks taking money for a product. I doubt there is any training other than ringing the cash register. And that doesn’t always go smooth.

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If it was just cashiers I would agree with you but not managers. They "should" know what they are selling.

Ethanol free fuel.

Today i went to buy some Ethanol free fuel and was recommended to buy Esso Premium 97 unleaded. Just checking before i put the fuel in the Norton a new sticker on the pump E5. Checked with the station manager and he confirmed it did contain Ethanol. Thats yet another fuel station to take off my list.

ELLIS

I would not trust anyone in the retail side of fuels to know what they are selling! And truthfully I would not even expect them to know or understand. We unerestimate how much our personal interest as 'petrol heads' deelops our understanding. Most people really don't give a shit until something stops!

They grow corn for ethanol fuels in the fields near me, so I am surrounded by the stuff. It will be mayhem for 2 weeks in September.

I mostly try to avoid E10 in my wife's little car. But when I need fuel for racing I need 98...yep...E10 is all I can get in France. I keep it in sealed jerry cans, use alloy tanks on the bikes and just don't leave it in the bikes for long! I cycle it in small amounts into my wife's car or the lawn tractor after race meetings.

In my road bikes and '50s car, which stand for months I use E5 and trust (Hmm!) to a stabiliser! Damage isn't obvious yet! But I am sure one day I will need to deal with something!

The lawn tractor says E10 on it! (Swedish built with plastic tank and American engine) I still chuck some stabiliser in over winter!

That's Warwickshire for ya, i only work here, don't know what I'm selling is the usual answer. Hey ho, next county only down the road and same answer. ???

An article in AutoExpress dated 6th June 2019 perhaps gives the reason for the new E5 stickers :

DfT starts rollout of E5 and B7 labels indicating ethanol and biofuel content of petrol and diesel. Signs will be mandatory by 1 September

The Department for Transport (DfT) is rolling out a new set of labels for petrol and diesel pumps at filling stations across the UK, with unleaded petrol to be renamed E5, and diesel labelled as B7. E10 petrol is likely to follow at a later date.

The names relate to the percentage of ethanol and biofuel present in petrol and diesel respectively, and are intended to make motorists “think more carefully about the environmental impacts of their journeys” and “educate drivers on the benefits of biofuels.” The majority of unleaded sold in the UK must contain up to five per cent ethanol under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation, though no such requirements are in place for super-unleaded.

The new labels are being rolled out immediately, and garages will be legally required to display them by September 2019. As well as the mandated E5 label, petrol stations will have to clearly show the biofuel content of the diesel fuel being sold, with diesel comprised of seven per cent biofuel clearly labelled as ‘B7’.

Biofuels are typically comprised of a blend of oil and plant or animal fat fuel, with the UK’s biodiesel comprised of oilseed rape, sugar beet and wheat. Figures from 2016 show 132,000 hectares of land in the UK was used to grow crops for bioenergy.

The move towards E5 and B7 labels is likely to herald the arrival of E10 petrol, which contains up to 10 per cent bioethanol and is claimed to bring about a two per cent reduction in CO2. The Government launched a consultation into E10 petrol in 2018, but motoring organisations have warned as many as 800,000 cars can’t use E10, and a second response to the consultation is due later this year.

Commenting on the new labels, Transport Minister Michael Ellis said: “Biofuels are a key way of achieving the emissions reductions the UK needs, and their use reduced CO2 emissions by 2.7 million tonnes last year alone – the equivalent of taking around 1.2 million cars off the road.”

Having changed from the local Texaco garage to the local Esso garage I find that Esso have now
put shiny new E5 stickers on both the 95 and 97 Octane pumps.

However, the Esso UK web site in frequently asked questions still states that the 97 is Ethanol free.

Anybody know more?

Sadly, I do not own an E-Type but found this on the E-Type forum posted by "SESH" and dated 6th September 2019.

"Statement just received today direct from Esso for their UK supply................

The E5 sticker on the Synergy Supreme+ petrol pumps was introduced to ensure Esso complies with the Government's standards on labelling of fuel labelling – see https://knowyourfuel.campaign.gov.uk/. The E5 label means the fuel could contain up to 5% renewables such as ethanol.

Esso does not currently have any plans to introduce ethanol into the Supreme+ fuel brand in the area."

I'll do the water test for Ethanol tomorrow and post result.

fiberglass? is almost indestructible. It is the resin that is the problem.
A marine tank of certain types of epoxy fiberglass might be OK. Marine tanks with polyester resin is in trouble...even vinylester resin is not going to work.
A norton tank made of GP (general purpose) polyester resin is just fine for old fashion gasoline. The problem with E-10 due to the ethynol...
I made a repop fastback tank back in the 90's with supposidly E-10 resistant vinylester resin and found E-10 was eating the resin.
Ethynol is bad directly on rubbers and plastics, dilution with gasoline does only slow down the damage.
Ethynol due to it's hydroscopic effect causes the water content to corrode the brass-copper alloys and the zinc alloys (amal) making the white powder you see in the bottom of the bowl and in your idle jet.

The only chemical I have found that is reported to be able to resist E-10 (proof) is:
DERAKANE MOMENTUM 470-300 resin is a novolac-based vinyl ester designed to provide exceptional
mechanical properties at higher temperatures. This resin offers a high resistance to solvents and
chemicals, good retention of strength and toughness at elevated temperatures, and excellent resistance
to acidic oxidizing environments.
Having interviewed the Chief chemist engineer? Vice president? at Ashland chemical in Ohio. The interview was specifically about the E-10 going up to E-15. His statement was to say it would work as I desired for making repop norton and Dunstall tanks up to 100% ethynol.
There is apparently 3 grades of Derakane, 2 of which are coast guard approved for marine gas tank use. Apparently there is a temperature limit to keep for full function. But the temp limit will not be exceeded on a bike with a human and their legs wrapped around it with gallons of liquid called gas or E-10.

FWIW fuel stabilisers are a bit of snake oil/salesman stuff. A white paper I read declared that their main purpose is to keep the fuel burnable as a fuel but does nothing to stop the ethynol damage to plastics,rubber and resins.

Just as a note, there are still two gas stations in my town that are listed on the "Pure gas" website. One of these stations has signs up that say "no ethanol".

But after talking to the drivers who deliver the fuel to the stations in my town they tell me that they are not allowed to deliver ethanol free fuel. After cornering the manager of the station with ethanol free signs he said he didn't know anymore but they used to have ethanol free fuel. [cop out]

comnoz said:

But after talking to the drivers who deliver the fuel to the stations in my town they tell me that they are not allowed to deliver ethanol free fuel.

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At the fuel depots, the gasoline is stored in tanks. The alcohol is dumped in the truck to the percentage required for the gasoline in the truck. Mixed on the road going to the gas station...It should be fresh upon arrival, then dumped in the tank at the station.
The only NO-E gasoline I can buy is at an airport north from here. They will only sell into a gas can. They will not sell to you if you mention, in any way, it is for any vehicle for use on the public roads. I buy 5-10 gallons NO-E for OPE ( outdoor power equipment) my lawn mower and chainsaws. I know real well the damage that ethynol can do. Five years ago, I had one chain saw and one lawn mower. Now after folks give me their dead chainsaws ( run on E-10/oil mix) I now own 61 saws approximately 90% have been repaired have been brought back to life from the E-10 poison. The rubber and plastic damage is mostly what kills them.
Rubber in the later petcocks will leak once damaged by E-10. I had bought a half dozen original style old AN petcocks and they all went bad. The clear PVC vinyl gas lines go rock hard in one season. I only use the real yellow tygon 4040 and they stay flexible for a very long time...I would only mount them on the metal banjo's, not the white plastic ones. I would not use the stainless covered rubber lines even if free...
Just my 2 cents...