E10 Again

Fast Eddie · Apr 24, 2022

worntorn said:
Hi Octane tends to be the highest ethanol content these days.
Adding Ethanol to the blend brings up the Octane rating.

Glen

That’s certainly logical Glen. But, thankfully, it’s not the case here in the U.K. Most of the good brands have little, some have zero, ethanol in the various versions of ‘super unleaded’ which vary from 97 to 99 octane (equivalent to about 93 to 94 in US rating).

I can only assume they have done this on purpose as they know there is a (relatively small, but still worthwhile) market for higher octane and lower ethanol in old / high performance / modified vehicles and it’s easier to make one fuel for that relatively small market than two (ethanol rich and ethanol free).

Fast Eddie · Apr 24, 2022

I’m a brand snob when it comes to fuel!

But it’s based on experience. I have filled old bikes up before at none branded places and been convinced there was a problem with the bike a few miles down the road, but a top up later on cured it! This has happened pre ethanol too.

Lots of super market chains and small ‘no brand‘ garages just buy the cheapest blend they can from whoever is offering the cheapest blend on the day. So the petrol is not stable or predictable. At all.

The big brands blends are stable and predictable. Furthermore, the big brands super unleaded offering are certain to offer higher octane and lower ethanol (at least they do over here).

My thinking is that if you start out with lower octane and higher alcohol, and then don’t use the bike for a while, it’s bound to exacerbate the issues of octane loss through evaporation and moisture gain through the hygroscopic properties of alcohol. Raising your chances of having a barely combustible corrosion inducing emulsion in the tank !

My logic is it’s probably even worse for the carbs. The carbs get hot in use, so any fuel left in them when parked up is going to be nicely warmed up, causing further evaporation and loss of octane. Leaving who knows what left sitting and gumming up the carbs.

Also, in old machines without knock sensors etc, it’s just safer IMHO to use the higher octane.

So, all things considered, I believe it’s better to use higher octane in Commandos, it is NOT only a ’thing’ for the high compression hot rod gang.

Onder · Apr 24, 2022

E5 is the best you can get in Kernow. 99 at Shell 97 at BP. Lot of places do not have E5 at all.
Welcome to the far reaches of the UK!

worntorn · Apr 24, 2022

Fast Eddie said:
That’s certainly logical Glen. But, thankfully, it’s not the case here in the U.K. Most of the good brands have little, some have zero, ethanol in the various versions of ‘super unleaded’ which vary from 97 to 99 octane (equivalent to about 93 to 94 in US rating).

I can only assume they have done this on purpose as they know there is a (relatively small, but still worthwhile) market for higher octane and lower ethanol in old / high performance / modified vehicles and it’s easier to make one fuel for that relatively small market than two (ethanol rich and ethanol free).

We have two companies here that have gone that route, ethanol free only in the premium highest octane.
All of the other suppliers have ethanol in all of their fuels, generally 5% in the lower grades and 10% in the high octane.
I tested 8 fuel types for ethanol content and hill power.

The best performance came from ethanol free 91 octane (97RON).
Second best was with ethanol free 94 octane (101RON)

The worst performance was with Shell V Nitro Premium 93 Octane (100 RON). With a name like that great things were expected!
It measured 9% ethanol by volume and showed a 6 kmh drop in hilltop speed vs the best ethanol free. That equates to a 4 bhp loss or 10% loss of available power at the tested rpm (4200)
I would like to try some E zero regular, 87 octane as the lower octane fuels contain more energy per unit of volume. Normally I run the Premium 91E0 or 94 E0 in the 850, however it is standard compression and will run fine on reg if needed.
So far I haven't found any E zero regular, it's all been 5% ethanol.

Glen

marshg246 · Apr 24, 2022

madass140 said:
I have a lot of bikes, only E10 fuel here, you would not believe the damage done to the carbs if the bikes left to sit for a while, even 1 month.

Same here. So, I turn the petcock off about a block from home and if I don't ride that bike again soon, I drain what's left in the bowls and fuel lines.

marshg246 · Apr 24, 2022

Fast Eddie said:
I’m a brand snob when it comes to fuel!

But it’s based on experience. I have filled old bikes up before at none branded places and been convinced there was a problem with the bike a few miles down the road, but a top up later on cured it! This has happened pre ethanol too.

Lots of super market chains and small ‘no brand‘ garages just buy the cheapest blend they can from whoever is offering the cheapest blend on the day. So the petrol is not stable or predictable. At all.

The big brands blends are stable and predictable. Furthermore, the big brands super unleaded offering are certain to offer higher octane and lower ethanol (at least they do over here).

My thinking is that if you start out with lower octane and higher alcohol, and then don’t use the bike for a while, it’s bound to exacerbate the issues of octane loss through evaporation and moisture gain through the hygroscopic properties of alcohol. Raising your chances of having a barely combustible corrosion inducing emulsion in the tank !

My logic is it’s probably even worse for the carbs. The carbs get hot in use, so any fuel left in them when parked up is going to be nicely warmed up, causing further evaporation and loss of octane. Leaving who knows what left sitting and gumming up the carbs.

Also, in old machines without knock sensors etc, it’s just safer IMHO to use the higher octane.

So, all things considered, I believe it’s better to use higher octane in Commandos, it is NOT only a ’thing’ for the high compression hot rod gang.

In the US, generally, all gas is the regulated to be same except for additives added just before delivery to the stations, this article says it better than I can: https://ezinearticles.com/?Is-There-a-Difference-Between-Gasoline-Brands?&id=3763622

In Northern Virginia, you have one choice - gas with ethanol and most don't say E5, E10, or E15 just "contains ethanol".

I like ethanol for running the engine, especially on an old bike (cleaner, cooler, easier starting). I don't like it for milage or sitting in the tank or carbs.

For those who haven't seen it, this is interesting: http://amalcarb.co.uk/ethanol-fuels and also the section of this on alcohol fuels: http://amalcarb.co.uk/downloadfiles/amal/Mk1_Hints_and_Tips.pdf

Lineslinger · Apr 24, 2022

If its "doable" try Aviation fuel.
I know the price of it has spiked recently but I ran one tank of 101 Octane Av gas in the spring of 2020 and will never run any Ethanol based fuel in my bike or other small vehicles, not if I can help it.
The difference in performance was a very big deal. AND...no more dancing around all the ethanol bs one has to deal with if using that dreadful stuff.

marshg246 · Apr 24, 2022

Lineslinger said:
If its "doable" try Aviation fuel.
I know the price of it has spiked recently but I ran one tank of 101 Octane Av gas in the spring of 2020 and will never run any Ethanol based fuel in my bike or other small vehicles, not if I can help it.
The difference in performance was a very big deal. AND...no more dancing around all the ethanol bs one has to deal with if using that dreadful stuff.

The problem is that for many, it's not doable. The closest airport to me where you might be able to get gas is 70 miles away and depending who's on duty, you may or may not get refused - there's no way to get gas at the big airports without an airplane. In southern VA there are still some gas stations with ethanol free gas but there are none within 60 miles of me and each one I checked has 87 or 89 octane only. I suspect that it's the same in most metropolitan areas.

Onder · Apr 24, 2022

Unless somebody come up with some clever cures it would seem the days of our bikes are limited as the fuels will only get worse and eventually not only expensive (worse than now if that can be imagined) but hard to find.
Ride now and enjoy, build up those memories.

MexicoMike · Apr 24, 2022

If you re-jet appropriately - admittedly a PITA - ethanol fuel of any percentage should produce as much power as non-ethanol. The fact that modern computer-controlled engines simply adjust the mixture/timing to do so proves that it can be done. Our '19 Mini Cooper can run on anything from non-ethanol to 30% ethanol with no difference in power. There is, of course, an MPG loss as the ethanol percentage rises but I can't imagine that anyone running an old Commando really cares that much about mileage.

We used to regularly tune engines to run on a specific gasoline; the same can be done with ethanol mixes.

worntorn · Apr 24, 2022

I jetted up and down with the ethanol. It pulled best with a 270 MJ rather than the 260 that works best with the ethanol free. I also tried a 280 with the E gas but the engine didn't like that, it was too rich.

After optimizing the MJs, the 850 still made significantly less power on 5 and 10% Ethanol than the E zero.

Glen

marshg246 · Apr 24, 2022

worntorn said:
I jetted up and down with the ethanol. It pulled best with a 270 MJ rather than the 260 that works best with the ethanol free. I also tried a 280 with the E gas but the engine didn't like that, it was too rich.

After optimizing the MJs, the 850 still made significantly less power on 5 and 10% Ethanol than the E zero.

Glen

Are you saying that at sustained WOT the bike ran slower on E5 and E10? What octane E0 are you using?

worntorn · Apr 24, 2022

Yes, the test is always at sustained WOT in top gear starting at 100kmh then pulling a 14.5% grade.

The best fuel for power was a local supplier, Coop fuels, 91 octane E zero. They have their own refinery in Alberta. Second best was Chevron Supreme E zero, 94 Octane.
Next was Coop E5, midgrade 89 octane ( all Aki numbers, not RON)
Petrocan and Shell high octane (91 & 93) E10s gave the lowest speeds at top.

Glen

marshg246 · Apr 24, 2022

worntorn said:
Yes, the test is always at sustained WOT in top gear starting at 100kmh then pulling a 14.5% grade.

The best fuel for power was a local supplier, Coop fuels, 91 octane E zero. They have their own refinery in Alberta. Second best was Chevron Supreme E zero, 94 Octane.
Next was Coop E5, midgrade 89 octane ( all Aki numbers, not RON)
Petrocan and Shell high octane (91 & 93) E10s gave the lowest speeds at top.

Glen

Interesting! Did you try the E5 and E10 with the 260 MJ as well? (Mathematically 270 is closest for both, but an interesting data point none the less) What was the top speed foreach? I like actual testing, especially when it disputes logic.

worntorn · Apr 24, 2022

IIRc the first ethanol fuel test was with 260s and 5% ethanol midgrade. That showed a measurable loss from my standard fuel, Chevron Supreme 94 ethanol free.
Changing to a 270 jet helped a bit but there was still some loss vs the Ethanol free. A 280 was tried and the speed slipped back.
I went through a similar process with the E10 and got a similar but slightly lower result.
Then I happened to try the Coop 91 Ethanol free. To my surprise the bike went faster than with the Chevron. I drained the tank twice to switch back and forth. The result was always the same, the Coop blend gave the greatest power.
It's also much cheaper than the Chevron product.
Unfortunately it's not readily available when out on tour, so it will be back on the Chevron Supreme for that type of riding. Or in a pinch I'll run the E5 or E10.
It won't hurt a thing if it's quickly run through then replaced with ethanol free later.

Glen

MexicoMike · Apr 24, 2022

Interestingly - Dyno tests, with engines tuned for each gas individually, show more HP with ethanol mix than with straight 93. There are a lot of internet tests published with dyno numbers to support that as long as the engine jetting and timing is adjusted for optimum power with each fuel.

Here's an example - the first dyno chart is 93 gasoline vs E85. The primary point of this article was to test various types of fuels but the first test is essentially what we are discussing here, straight gasoline vs ethanol/gasoline: https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/big-fuel-test-part-5-e85-versus-winner-crowned/

jaydee75 · Apr 24, 2022

MexicoMike said:
Here's an example - the first dyno chart is 93 gasoline vs E85. The primary point of this article was to test various types of fuels but the first test is essentially what we are discussing here, straight gasoline vs ethanol/gasoline: https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/big-fuel-test-part-5-e85-versus-winner-crowned/

But we're talking E5, E10, etc. E85 is a whole different ball game. It's more like what Acotrel raced and is always talking about on here. A lot of car guys rejet and use it for max hp, but I don't think it's practical for a street Commando. (And be very careful to not spill it on your lacquered gas tank).
Jaydee

worntorn · Apr 24, 2022

MexicoMike said:
Interestingly - Dyno tests, with engines tuned for each gas individually, show more HP with ethanol mix than with straight 93. There are a lot of internet tests published with dyno numbers to support that as long as the engine jetting and timing is adjusted for optimum power with each fuel.

Here's an example - the first dyno chart is 93 gasoline vs E85. The primary point of this article was to test various types of fuels but the first test is essentially what we are discussing here, straight gasoline vs ethanol/gasoline: https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/dyno-testing/big-fuel-test-part-5-e85-versus-winner-crowned/

That was the trend of the various bits of info I had gathered, the ethanol fuel will give more power with the right jetting.
The old Norton did not agree!

Glen

MexicoMike · Apr 24, 2022

You are correct - the article was referring to E85, not E10/15. Their reference to E85 as "pump gas" misled me. I thought they misspoke but it was my error. I have learned that there are gas pumps at stations in parts of the US with E85.

E10 Again

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