Does anyone's tranny do this...

Yellow_Cad said:

concours, when you say, "ATF filled high above the level plug," what caused you to try this and what is the idea behind it? I'm not saying that it wouldn't work, I'm just curious about it. Jim

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I do not undstand this either. We're just trying to lube the chain a little, aren't we?

pierodn said:

ATF ...... Means ?????

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Automatic Transmission Fluid.

It lubes the primary chain as needed yet does not contaminate the clutch plates.

ATF :Automatic Transmission Fluid oil for automatic transmission

OK, I'll try that again. When you say, "filled high above the level plug," why? Jim

If I mount the Dyno Dave prevent to oil from gearbox: theme but the clutch disks are not so wet from this oil in the primary
chaincase?. Ciao.

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ALTERT. Ciao you've mixed up engine oil vs chain case vs gear lube chambers.
The gearbox is a separate container form chain and engine, so just drools oil along shaft. The clutch end rod seal helps that gravity leak w/o any pressure gradients d/t gearbox open to ambient via cable port. The various PCV's lower engine pressure so tend to suck air/oil back into engine than blow it out seams. Crank shaft seals often weep and can let engine oil into chain case, but no big deal but messier to plates than ATF and can over fill chain case way above bottonm run as generally all should be in there. If you over fill oil tank or chain case or gearbox they will leak weep and sling and drool oil sitting or running till reaching their innate levels that have little to do with sight plugs or dip stick levels. Everyone should do this at least once to know for sure what their normal levels should be. Jim Comstock says with his reed breather kit to drill another hole lower in TS chain case or it tends to over fill with oil and gets hotter than with lower oil, [whether that matters or not]. Main danger is leaving primary chain tension too tight when cold or when hot may deflect shaft so their seals fail and even shafts bend. If ya really nit picky then Ford Type F [F for plate friction additive not Ford] is better for clutch than Dextron but I run either for a long time and both work a treat. Chains love ATF and new plates or newly surfaced plates are best wet with ATF then wiped off a bit to hlep bed in w/o initial engagement chatter effects. Barrnett tech told me so.

Yellow_Cad said:

OK, I'll try that again. When you say, "filled high above the level plug," why? Jim

Click to expand...

The level plug drilling is 3/8" below the lower chain run (on my primary case) and I cannot rely on the chain's catenary to POSSIBLY give my clutch hub bearings, WET clutch plates, roller chain and stator (cooling) the good lubrication it deserves. It flies in the face of everything I've learned in 40 years of machinery repair. So, I plug the level plug, look in through the fill home and cover entirely the bottom run of chain. I know, I've lit the fuse to a firestorm of scathing commentary, the drywetdrywetsemidrysemiwetpartiallywetpartlydry clutch debate :roll: boils down to: it's a multi plate clutch, the modern fibre plates ENJOY a nice warm oil bath, perform great and will last well in that environment. There is not a single drop of oil under the bike. None. Zero. (can't say that about the old Yamaha!) And while I know I've angered the engineering Gods of half a century ago, for now, the ongoing great performance of the clutch and primary in general forces me to continue. :mrgreen:

Just want to once again thank Dyno Dave for documenting and sharing the in depth clutch knowledge. His hard work allowed me to zoom right to a good set up (stack height, spring, pushrod seal, etc.) right away the first time. Thanks to bill for the Barnett clutch plate advice, my "within .001" of new thickness" bronze plates now repose in a box, probably for good.

YMMV

pvisseriii said:

Yellow_Cad said:

concours, when you say, "ATF filled high above the level plug," what caused you to try this and what is the idea behind it? I'm not saying that it wouldn't work, I'm just curious about it. Jim

Click to expand...

I do not undstand this either. We're just trying to lube the chain a little, aren't we?

Click to expand...

I like to lube a chain a LOT, lube two roller bearings a LOT, lube the wet clutch stack a LOT and very importantly, COOL the stator.

concours said:

pvisseriii said:

Yellow_Cad said:

concours, when you say, "ATF filled high above the level plug," what caused you to try this and what is the idea behind it? I'm not saying that it wouldn't work, I'm just curious about it. Jim

Click to expand...

I do not undstand this either. We're just trying to lube the chain a little, aren't we?

Click to expand...

I like to lube a chain a LOT, lube two roller bearings a LOT, lube the wet clutch stack a LOT and very importantly, COOL the stator.

Click to expand...

AAAllllllllll righty then.

pierodn said:

Nortiboy said:

Yellow_Cad said:

It usually happens in the early part of the outing and doesn't seem to do it again that day. When I am approaching a stop early in the outing, I attempt to shift down to no avail.

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Gearbox oil migration maybe. Sticky plates worst when cold.

Clean the clutch plates and try again. If you don't have the DynoDave clutch seal, invest in one.

Cheers

Norti

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Please,
I don't understand one thing.

If I mount the Dyno Dave prevent to oil from gearbox: theme but the clutch disks are not so wet from this oil in the primary
chaincase?.

Ciao.

Piero

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It's the GEAR OIL that causes the sticking/slipping, the primary case oil is OK for wet clutch

concours said:

Yellow_Cad said:

OK, I'll try that again. When you say, "filled high above the level plug," why? Jim

Click to expand...

The level plug drilling is 3/8" below the lower chain run (on my primary case) and I cannot rely on the chain's catenary to POSSIBLY give my clutch hub bearings, WET clutch plates, roller chain and stator (cooling) the good lubrication it deserves. It flies in the face of everything I've learned in 40 years of machinery repair. So, I plug the level plug, look in through the fill home and cover entirely the bottom run of chain. I know, I've lit the fuse to a firestorm of scathing commentary, the drywetdrywetsemidrysemiwetpartiallywetpartlydry clutch debate :roll: boils down to: it's a multi plate clutch, the modern fibre plates ENJOY a nice warm oil bath, perform great and will last well in that environment. There is not a single drop of oil under the bike. None. Zero. (can't say that about the old Yamaha!) And while I know I've angered the engineering Gods of half a century ago, for now, the ongoing great performance of the clutch and primary in general forces me to continue. :mrgreen:

Just want to once again thank Dyno Dave for documenting and sharing the in depth clutch knowledge. His hard work allowed me to zoom right to a good set up (stack height, spring, pushrod seal, etc.) right away the first time. Thanks to bill for the Barnett clutch plate advice, my "within .001" of new thickness" bronze plates now repose in a box, probably for good.

YMMV

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OK concours, I see your logic and it looks like it is working for you and for that matter, it could be the best way to do it. Like you, I've been around machinery for lots of years and I do know that some lubricating situations are better if not immersed yet continually coated with an oil film. I believe the idea is to allow the bearing, chain, whatever to better release heat. Again, I'm not saying that your idea is not completely right. It surely could be. Thanks for sharing your approach on this. Jim

Just to be clear - the factory sanctioned method as reviewed just above, is use same oil as engine in primary just don't put gear lube in primary or gums up plates faster. Gummed up plates don't slip so much as lock up after sitting over night and can be a bugger to break free to ride. Gummed plates may tend to slip on hot rodding too.

Yellow_Cad said:

concours said:

Yellow_Cad said:

OK, I'll try that again. When you say, "filled high above the level plug," why? Jim

Click to expand...

The level plug drilling is 3/8" below the lower chain run (on my primary case) and I cannot rely on the chain's catenary to POSSIBLY give my clutch hub bearings, WET clutch plates, roller chain and stator (cooling) the good lubrication it deserves. It flies in the face of everything I've learned in 40 years of machinery repair. So, I plug the level plug, look in through the fill home and cover entirely the bottom run of chain. I know, I've lit the fuse to a firestorm of scathing commentary, the drywetdrywetsemidrysemiwetpartiallywetpartlydry clutch debate :roll: boils down to: it's a multi plate clutch, the modern fibre plates ENJOY a nice warm oil bath, perform great and will last well in that environment. There is not a single drop of oil under the bike. None. Zero. (can't say that about the old Yamaha!) And while I know I've angered the engineering Gods of half a century ago, for now, the ongoing great performance of the clutch and primary in general forces me to continue. :mrgreen:

Just want to once again thank Dyno Dave for documenting and sharing the in depth clutch knowledge. His hard work allowed me to zoom right to a good set up (stack height, spring, pushrod seal, etc.) right away the first time. Thanks to bill for the Barnett clutch plate advice, my "within .001" of new thickness" bronze plates now repose in a box, probably for good.

YMMV

Click to expand...

OK concours, I see your logic and it looks like it is working for you and for that matter, it could be the best way to do it. Like you, I've been around machinery for lots of years and I do know that some lubricating situations are better if not immersed yet continually coated with an oil film. I believe the idea is to allow the bearing, chain, whatever to better release heat. Again, I'm not saying that your idea is not completely right. It surely could be. Thanks for sharing your approach on this. Jim

Click to expand...

Point well taken, agreed that total immersion is not the best idea. That's why I fill to cover the BOTTOM RUN of chain, up to the TOP would be detrimental. Pop quiz.... think of an industrial chain (or any drive) application where the oil level is maintained BELOW the lowest moving part to be lubricated (with no pump) let me know what comes to mind :idea: I couldn't

The oil in primary is not to carry off heat, its to keep chain wear grit flushed out links and dribble lube on un-sealed center bearings. The alternator does not need oil to blow off it meager electrical resistance heat, ask any and every dry sealed belt maker and vender. Air holes in case are for lightness and decoration only. Even Sir Eddie was planning on running a dry primary chain in his land speeder. Can go a long ways w/o lube in gearbox or primary, unless WOT racing.