Decreasing Radius Views
- Thread starter Hobot
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ugh I'm a rider not a writer but eerie on the double meaning typo pointed out. Too many decreasing radius turns out here to enjoy powering into on anything else but my impossible Peel for which there just ain't enough of em around so i like to make em all sharper at the end on throttle. The sharper ones on Peel i call Ricochet Rabbit turns and are literally breath taking to me. My safety trick on all bikes is to always brake full upright to enter slow enough one can add good power before leaning into them and can continue on power throughout while screwing down the G forces into a spiral. All cycles can take a lot higher short sharp loads than longer held constant loads so my fast lines tend to mimic a billiard ball off the bumpers not smooth arcs.
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hobot said:
Yes, your diagrams above mostly seem to have some car orientation, cycles can move about in their lane a lot more. And you are right, doing short turns hard into the apex and hard out again doesn't produce those 'smooth arcs', but is a much faster way of progressing.
And as Mike Hailwood said (winner of a number of recent-ish IoM TTs), "slow into the corner, and fast out". = Less chance of overcooking it into the corner, BIG factor in no crashes...
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oh oh Rohan you have rationally responded to the whole crux of my addition to an isolastic skinny tire torque monster Commando potential. I only expected to share the pensive sense of DR and how rest of the world handles them.
To me there are 3 ways to handle DRadii in order of ability. 1. Two wheel craft. 2. Four wheel craft. 3. Ms Peel.
Ms Peel is so good I can not practice her DR lines on other cycles, only in cages that have some sporting ability to accelerate good and not lean too much when tossed. I included car lines for my pleasure and wondered if anyone would note the difference from corner crippled motorcycles. Cars/trucks can brake better into turns and throttle up sooner or even all the way around plus can swing rear out while straight steering to sharpen up the turn at same time lining rear thrust up to hook up right out of there. But cars are massive and can't lean or flip up so can't really do 90' sharp turns w/o sliding wide to loose time and traction. Ground force cars aren't in ground force speed effect in the tighter DR we encounter daily.
Bikes can take short sharp spikes of inputs and react to them better than cars. But the too flexy vintage bikes and the too rigid ringing moderns can't take what it takes not to get up set full powering a DR. So bikes can take sharper quicker turn load but only for an instant at a time or they wind up and let go.
Ms Peel can be wound up a lot tighter w/o let go and then release w/o rebound.
To get beyond what's illustrated one can not depend on front to steer, must get it out the way of conflicting with rear in leans, generally only to help rear top or to act as pivot point straight steering until rear grips enough to lift it off surface while leaned.
My fast lines into all corners is the deepest way straight to the far side-outer edge of turn, then several ways to jerk as close to 90' whip lash as possible that aims bike into longest view of next leg of turn. Four ways-speeds-power to do this.
1. Common counter steer keeping both tires in effective traction but limited by lean fouling and traction of rear to low side down-out with CSing front helping low side rear dn-out while also aiming front away from desired turn. The lower ya can go and still accelerate the faster sharper ya can spiral in till Splat but surely will Splat on common bikes at some point if they don't slide wide.
2. Supermotord method of 'backing into corners' by rear brake slide or power spin so rear edge helps slow out ward vector while gradually thrusting forward into new line. But they are still counter steering so can't put much power down so actually slowing up to apex till effective hook up for throttle again. Peel allows this on commutes as its fairly safe and don't risk accelerating rush into blinds too fast to dodge the unknowns. Peel's both tires planted method 2 is to aim deepest to far edge then spin rear out ward till ~90' to travel - so she falls over in low side w/o fork help so at this instant forks can jerk opposite into straight steer which suddenly levers bike up right by *forcing *rear patch down harder so more power can be planted so just hooks on around like the fabled "On Rails" praise. Ho hum, its rather f**king faster than them balloon things can take or decent cars but shoot there's 3 more funner ways.
3. Run along the straight part of paint line of inside radius and keep that tangent line past the turn to cross land till about a bike length from very edge dead on off the edge- then nail throttle to trip bike down as well as swing rear ~90' to travel and next instant flip or rather let forks straight steer by road following force and add a bit extra straight steer to force rear patch down Hard while on peg scratching angle and give it more power till front lifts in sideways wheelie that sharpens turn dramatically and lands automatically in line as rear lines up with it out of there. This can easy evolve to sharper turns than needed so leaves a short straight away accelerating better on upright tire and at speeds enough to more easy trip out if needed for more of the turn. I call this faceting a turn. Down side is there is still some wasted time/traction forward while rear dividing its loads. But by golly it don't bleed off much momentum like corner cripples. I can do it on other cycles that's how I first learned it but too unpredictable to get away with for so little extra speed I quit em.
4. This is weirdest wildest and takes special extra sharp back to back DR's to apply. Start by going so fast #2 would crash right through apex, trip down like #3 but stay in crashing counter steer till time to save it, then let fork flip straight steer as power cut so bike hi sides up off both tires as it also twists in air on Cog with rear leading of course, to land on very smashed down patch lined up for HI Torque hit that out accelerates the crash on over too far, right out of there with frame also unwinding from the landing for sling shot into new line. MIght ask Red Bull to sponser a cushion bed to demo motorcycle barrel roll on to its tires. Down side is turns too sharp to use most places and still has hesitation in the dragster shove into seat so sensed there must be better hook up way.
5. This one's main reason for big block boost to act more like a car than a cycle spiraling around DRs upright straight steering. Both # 3 & 4 require leaning far over on Peel so power can break free in time but then can't hook up full way around on highest power on best 10% tire slippage sounds zone. Basically just a rolling burn out like ya see stunt bikes do w/o going very fast or turning much. Its constant drag like acceleration hook up but w/o much leaning needed as the rear thrust is vectored to compensate the fly over. Its requires easiest lightest force on bars or tank grip of all methods, as each method is less effort than the one prior on Peel so tempts ya right into em w/o thinking about it. Peel could do this on THE Gravel in 2nd and 1st on pavement but soon as power band increase falls off >> Hi Side Crash City. This one takes the most commitment to jump past the prior limit to never let off the spinning -before entering-through the sharpest- on out the relief phase - which in Peel should be floating front level all lined up again.
Its crazy making not to see any turn as too sharp to need brakes or any best line to apex as can just jump rail tracks as needed. Go Karts on Gymkanna events is something I want Peel to tease with. Don't know if brave enough or power planting enough to play drift car games in close quarters but plan to find out.
Chief Fall Guy at Ricochet Rabbit Ranch.
To me there are 3 ways to handle DRadii in order of ability. 1. Two wheel craft. 2. Four wheel craft. 3. Ms Peel.
Ms Peel is so good I can not practice her DR lines on other cycles, only in cages that have some sporting ability to accelerate good and not lean too much when tossed. I included car lines for my pleasure and wondered if anyone would note the difference from corner crippled motorcycles. Cars/trucks can brake better into turns and throttle up sooner or even all the way around plus can swing rear out while straight steering to sharpen up the turn at same time lining rear thrust up to hook up right out of there. But cars are massive and can't lean or flip up so can't really do 90' sharp turns w/o sliding wide to loose time and traction. Ground force cars aren't in ground force speed effect in the tighter DR we encounter daily.
Bikes can take short sharp spikes of inputs and react to them better than cars. But the too flexy vintage bikes and the too rigid ringing moderns can't take what it takes not to get up set full powering a DR. So bikes can take sharper quicker turn load but only for an instant at a time or they wind up and let go.
Ms Peel can be wound up a lot tighter w/o let go and then release w/o rebound.
To get beyond what's illustrated one can not depend on front to steer, must get it out the way of conflicting with rear in leans, generally only to help rear top or to act as pivot point straight steering until rear grips enough to lift it off surface while leaned.
My fast lines into all corners is the deepest way straight to the far side-outer edge of turn, then several ways to jerk as close to 90' whip lash as possible that aims bike into longest view of next leg of turn. Four ways-speeds-power to do this.
1. Common counter steer keeping both tires in effective traction but limited by lean fouling and traction of rear to low side down-out with CSing front helping low side rear dn-out while also aiming front away from desired turn. The lower ya can go and still accelerate the faster sharper ya can spiral in till Splat but surely will Splat on common bikes at some point if they don't slide wide.
2. Supermotord method of 'backing into corners' by rear brake slide or power spin so rear edge helps slow out ward vector while gradually thrusting forward into new line. But they are still counter steering so can't put much power down so actually slowing up to apex till effective hook up for throttle again. Peel allows this on commutes as its fairly safe and don't risk accelerating rush into blinds too fast to dodge the unknowns. Peel's both tires planted method 2 is to aim deepest to far edge then spin rear out ward till ~90' to travel - so she falls over in low side w/o fork help so at this instant forks can jerk opposite into straight steer which suddenly levers bike up right by *forcing *rear patch down harder so more power can be planted so just hooks on around like the fabled "On Rails" praise. Ho hum, its rather f**king faster than them balloon things can take or decent cars but shoot there's 3 more funner ways.
3. Run along the straight part of paint line of inside radius and keep that tangent line past the turn to cross land till about a bike length from very edge dead on off the edge- then nail throttle to trip bike down as well as swing rear ~90' to travel and next instant flip or rather let forks straight steer by road following force and add a bit extra straight steer to force rear patch down Hard while on peg scratching angle and give it more power till front lifts in sideways wheelie that sharpens turn dramatically and lands automatically in line as rear lines up with it out of there. This can easy evolve to sharper turns than needed so leaves a short straight away accelerating better on upright tire and at speeds enough to more easy trip out if needed for more of the turn. I call this faceting a turn. Down side is there is still some wasted time/traction forward while rear dividing its loads. But by golly it don't bleed off much momentum like corner cripples. I can do it on other cycles that's how I first learned it but too unpredictable to get away with for so little extra speed I quit em.
4. This is weirdest wildest and takes special extra sharp back to back DR's to apply. Start by going so fast #2 would crash right through apex, trip down like #3 but stay in crashing counter steer till time to save it, then let fork flip straight steer as power cut so bike hi sides up off both tires as it also twists in air on Cog with rear leading of course, to land on very smashed down patch lined up for HI Torque hit that out accelerates the crash on over too far, right out of there with frame also unwinding from the landing for sling shot into new line. MIght ask Red Bull to sponser a cushion bed to demo motorcycle barrel roll on to its tires. Down side is turns too sharp to use most places and still has hesitation in the dragster shove into seat so sensed there must be better hook up way.
5. This one's main reason for big block boost to act more like a car than a cycle spiraling around DRs upright straight steering. Both # 3 & 4 require leaning far over on Peel so power can break free in time but then can't hook up full way around on highest power on best 10% tire slippage sounds zone. Basically just a rolling burn out like ya see stunt bikes do w/o going very fast or turning much. Its constant drag like acceleration hook up but w/o much leaning needed as the rear thrust is vectored to compensate the fly over. Its requires easiest lightest force on bars or tank grip of all methods, as each method is less effort than the one prior on Peel so tempts ya right into em w/o thinking about it. Peel could do this on THE Gravel in 2nd and 1st on pavement but soon as power band increase falls off >> Hi Side Crash City. This one takes the most commitment to jump past the prior limit to never let off the spinning -before entering-through the sharpest- on out the relief phase - which in Peel should be floating front level all lined up again.
Its crazy making not to see any turn as too sharp to need brakes or any best line to apex as can just jump rail tracks as needed. Go Karts on Gymkanna events is something I want Peel to tease with. Don't know if brave enough or power planting enough to play drift car games in close quarters but plan to find out.
Chief Fall Guy at Ricochet Rabbit Ranch.
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- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
One of our local mini Dragons paved over wagon trails. Had 64 yr old new ride friend Bob Grimlin visiting tell me he lost a friend on Z1 playing here, and told me I was a dangerous rider on Ms Pee, then he got T-bone killed on Texas Hwy 4 yr ago, so jokes on him eh. The main tight points are shown ~1:30 to 6 min.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c6pjn1PZgc&feature=related[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c6pjn1PZgc&feature=related[/video]
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Here's example of what I want to contest with in their element and may get my ass kicked, but Peel does allow the jerking acceleration straightening of decreasing radii like these tiny tires Karts. Looking into CVT type tranny but not this type design but can see its benefits.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWkpLrnAjEU&feature=player_embedded[/video]
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWkpLrnAjEU&feature=player_embedded[/video]
