Dave Taylor Head Steady Question

highdesert · Nov 19, 2009

Any have a DTHS?
My question has to do with the amount of force in the fingers deemed proper to make the ball joints turn or rotate.
I have had mine installed for a month or so now, and I had the tank and head steady off yesterday in order to
facilitate allowing the motor to move a bit while doing a complete isolastic rebuild.

When I re installed the "rod" linking the head to the frame, I played around trying to turn the ball joint.
It was certainly not an easy turn, but could be done with a fair amount of finger force.

It is ok, or should the joints turn as easily as if they were NOT installed?

Any thoughts of this, or is the fact that the motor itself has plenty of ability to turn the joints "sufficient"?

cash · Nov 19, 2009

You should be able to turn the link easily but only with the bike off the main stand and preferably with you sitting on the seat. If not then perhaps the ISO rebuild has moved the power unit centre and you might be wise to check the wheel aligment after you re-set the link.

Cash

rbt11548 · Nov 19, 2009

I can flick mine up and down with my finger when it is off the mainstand and me sitting on it, if you lean to the right or left it will tighten slightly and when you put it on the main stand it should take a bit of pressure to move it. It can take a wee bit to find the sweetspot, you may have to play about with each of the tube clamping screws to get it right, but a bit of perseverance will get you there.
Robert

highdesert · Nov 19, 2009

OK, good suggestions guys.

It is clear that you are saying that the ball joints should move their roughly quarter inch total movement really
quite easily when off the centerstand and rider seated.

Mine do NOT, and require a fair amount of force to get them to move at all..

I will relax the frame mountings and shift the mount forward and backward a tad to try to find the point
where the ball joints move the easiest, then tighten it up.

Excellent observations, thanks AGAIN.

rbt11548 · Nov 19, 2009

highdesert said:
OK, good suggestions guys.

I will relax the frame mountings and shift the mount forward and backward a tad to try to find the point
where the ball joints move the easiest, then tighten it up.

.

Sometimes the mounting will move ever so slighlty when you tweek the allen screws, so if you can get the sweetspot try holding the tube mounting with your fingers and move the joint with your thumb while you tighten the screws that way you can feel it tightening up, if it does feel like it's tightening when you are tightening a screw try and adjust the other screw, as I said it's just a matter of trial and error.

rbt11548 · Nov 20, 2009

ludwig said:
highdesert said:

... the ball joints should move their roughly quarter inch total movement really
quite easily when off the centerstand and rider seated.

Click to expand...

What's the point ?
As soon as you are rolling , the joints will be under a constant load , L or R .
Look at how these things are built : strong enough to take tons of sideload .
Why worry about a few grams of pressure when standing still ?

Myself, and, I'm sure a few fellow members of the forum, although I can only speak for myself in this instance!, are creatures of simplicity, and when purchasing a new item that comes with instructions tend to read the instructions, especially if we have never fitted a particular piece before. Now; the instructions that come with the aforementioned headsteady state that you set it in a certain way, this I would imagine, is so that the item can work to it's best as designed by the manufacturer after lots of testing, and that the installer finds it relatively easy to install.
Maybe , just maybe , that is the point!
After all we wouldn't tighten the con rod studs right up in the hope that it would free up when it would be under tons of load!......would we ?

WEAL Norton · Nov 21, 2009

Ludwig

I have successfully straightened bent frames or swingarms, replaced wrong engine fittings etc. When I build a frame (like the Egli or Dunstall stuff) I always try to get the wheels in line and dead vertical with less than 1mm off in any direction - usually 0,5mm or less can be achieved. The full movement of fork and swingarm needs to be checked as well - if those axes are not dead square everything will be misaligned when the bike is on the move. It cannot be checked properly with the spokewheels . I always use a pair of remachined cast wheels which run dead true.

Cheers

Hartmut

PS: my blown Triumph runs dead true at all speeds - and I didn´t even make that frame in my jig as I had lent it to a friend who had not yet finished his Egli Triumph 3.

rbt11548 · Nov 21, 2009

ludwig said:
rbt11548 said:

instructions ' , with no stress on the tie rod , it means you assume that your engine craddle + swing arm is in the correct place relative to the frame .
Is it ?
Knowing the sloppy tolerances by wich these bikes where produced , this is very unlikely ( or pure luck ) .
Did you check that your wheels move in the same vertical plane ?
Did you check that your swingarm is parallel ?
Are your frame lugs welded in the correct position ?
Are the tubes of your bottom isos square ?
If you feel that none of this is important , or worth checking , than why did you spend the time and money to install a DT in the first place ?
Not to reduce vibration , I suppose .
If you are concerned about vibration transmitted trough friction , then you should urgently remove your mounting collars and PTFE washers from your bottom isos and replace them with tie rods .
Think about the tie rods of your car : you can turn them by hand , but as soon as the car is rolling , they come under load , still they do not prevent the wheels to move up and down .
On a Commando , all side load on the rear wheel is directly transmitted to the head steady .
Following instructions is nice , but if you istall a DT on a bike that rides sideways like a crab , it will keep riding like a crab .
It is like setting your valves ' per instructions' , but on bent push rods .
Thàt's the point !
btw , I 'll take te oportunity to ask a question I asked several times before , but never got an answer :
If you check the wheel line out on a Commando , using a string , ruler , laser pen .. and you find that the wheels are not in line ( not the offset , but pointing in different directions ) ,
What will you do to correct this ?

Click to expand...

Thank you for taking the time to scribe all the above,
I will do nothing to correct 'this' as my bike handles just fine as it is for me as I'msure, highdeserts will do for him, that is the point,
but thank you for your concern

rbt11548 · Nov 21, 2009

ludwig said:
rbt11548 said:

I will do nothing to correct 'this' as my bike handles just fine as it is for me ...

Click to expand...

Now , thàt's the spirit !
( and one wonders the entire British motorcycle and car industry went belly up ) .

Ok I have been weighed, measured and been found wanting
:?

grandpaul · Nov 21, 2009

I don't know, my butt doesn't have fractional calibration.

I have ridden bikes that were supposedly "perfect" that didn't feel right to me, and bikes that were "sloppy" that didn't feel any worse.

At some point, it's down to splitting hairs, and some hairs are apparently worlds apart in thickness from other hairs.

Kinda like the guys talking about "huge" differences in thousandths of an inch of grooving on top of a valve stem and how it TOTALLY destroys the peak HP.

YEEF!!!!!

"Horses for courses", or something like that, I guess...

rbt11548 · Nov 21, 2009

grandpaul said:
I don't know, my butt doesn't have fractional calibration.

"Horses for courses", or something like that, I guess...

My rear end isn't that sensitive either , and I won't tweek anything that upsets the rhythm that I'm comfortable with :wink:
Horses for courses is about right!!

highdesert · Nov 21, 2009

Well, I CAN detect a fair lessening of vibration with my new DTHS compared to the stock unit, and especially under 3500rpm.
Makes sense, as it does hold the head much more in line as regards right to left movement than the stock unit.
In addition, I can tell quite a difference in the handling, it is now sharper, more "taut" because there is, again, less movement right and left.

If DOES make sense, to me, to set it up off the center stand and with rider seated, AND to allow as much and as "easiest" ball joint movement.
all other things mentioned, being as best as one cares to take the time to set up.

rbt11548 · Nov 21, 2009

highdesert said:
Well, I CAN detect a fair lessening of vibration with my new DTHS compared to the stock unit, and especially under 3500rpm.
Makes sense, as it does hold the head much more in line as regards right to left movement than the stock unit.
In addition, I can tell quite a difference in the handling, it is now sharper, more "taut" because there is, again, less movement right and left

Well done, good feeling whensomething comes right in the end!

If DOES make sense, to me, to set it up off the center stand and with rider seated, AND to allow as much and as "easiest" ball joint movement.
all other things mentioned, being as best as one cares to take the time to set up.

You've sussed it, decent handling for you without having to get spirit levels and strings out!
What did you set your iso gaps at?

Robert

kommando · Nov 21, 2009

Must tell all those World Rally and F1 teams based in the UK they are pissing in the wind being based in the UK and need to go to Germany :lol:

rbt11548 · Nov 21, 2009

kommando said:
Must tell all those World Rally and F1 teams based in the UK they are pissing in the wind being based in the UK and need to go to Germany :lol:

What DO you mean

highdesert · Nov 21, 2009

My ISO have just been rebuilt, and long ago I installed the pre 75 threaded adjustable ones.

I cannot explain "why" they would be set differently than the 10 thou shimmed settings say.
But, my own experience is to slack them way off until no vibration is felt, then stop bike and while running loosen set screws and rotate them in,
ride to get feel and do it again, until you just feel some vibration in the footpegs and bars, set it and forget it.

79x100 · Nov 21, 2009

Ludwig, I have become aware that you really don't care very much for the Taylor headsteady but they do have the advantage of being an off the shelf option for the non-engineers amongst us.

All I can say, having progressed from Mark 111 head steadies through Norvils is that the Taylor system works better for me than either of them. Control is much more precise than the OE setup and vibration is reduced when compared with a Norvil.

I agree with your view that it cannot be used to correct main iso inaccuracy but at least, if set up per instructions, it does not introduce a further source of misalignment which the original steady with its lack of lateral adjustment can do. As standard, the upper positioning is controlled by a crude pressed and welded construction, two pressed side plates and some non-precision rubbers. Add to this that the fixing studs are a rattling fit in the frame cross-bushes and there is a good chance that tightening the assembly will pull the engine out of vertical in the frame.

I know from previous postings that you hold the view that increased vibration is a small price to pay for improved handling but if I didn't want the full Commando 'Isolastic super-ride' then I'd build a Seeley or buy a Ratlas

Flo · Nov 21, 2009

I dissagree with the standard head steady pulling the engine out of line as long as the head bolts are done up last.
I recently put a Norman White head steady on mine, it has only one rubber Iso. Took 3 evenings to fit it because of bad workmanship. I wished I had used a DTHS now, it looks so much better all round.

79x100 · Nov 21, 2009

There's no lateral adjustment on the standard head steady, other than the hole clearance. The adjustment is fore and aft. Tightening up the sideplates first could lead to the head steady no longer sitting square by the time the screws are nipped up. It has always seemed logical to me that the steady should be square to the engine and the screw distance from the slot ends identical.

I can really only confirm what I've seen which is that the production tolerances of the standard steady can lead to it pushing on one rubber and pulling on the other when it should be sitting neutrally. The Taylor steady has no restriction on lateral adjustment and setting it up so the joints are loose means that it is not pulling the main isos either way when at rest.

Oh, what the hell ? I'm pleased with mine.

Flo · Nov 21, 2009

Come to think about it, I did file the holes out donkies years ago, so yes you are right. Forgot about that.
The head steady I did fit does seem to work, needed a fair bit of fettling to get it tio fit though.

Dave Taylor Head Steady Question

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