CNW E-Start Reviews

Knucles said:

I bought the CNW for my 71 . I did not consider it expensive .
maybe because I am used to getting aircraft parts ?
the way I looked at this purchase was too many of my friends are getting older and new knees .
my knees are still fine and I want to keep them that way.
Human body repairs are wicked expensive .
I thought of this starter as cheap insurance .
I actually think this kit is very well priced .
if Matt makes some money it is also a bit of insurance that he will be around to support it .

Click to expand...

Knucles said:

I bought the CNW for my 71 . I did not consider it expensive .
maybe because I am used to getting aircraft parts ?
the way I looked at this purchase was too many of my friends are getting older and new knees .
my knees are still fine and I want to keep them that way.
Human body repairs are wicked expensive .
I thought of this starter as cheap insurance .
I actually think this kit is very well priced .
if Matt makes some money it is also a bit of insurance that he will be around to support it .

Click to expand...

RoadScholar said:

The batteries that made big news for Boeing were LiFePO4; granted not a 50 year old motorcycle design, but lit up. Samsung Galaxy note 7s lit up and of course the batteries in the stupid hoverboards lit up a few houses. At least 2 forum members were lucky to get off their Nortons before being killed or seriously injured when their lithium batteries lit up.

Click to expand...

I would be interested in the source of your info. It is my understanding that the Boeing problems have been grouped (smoke). From what I've read the actual battery fires were LiCoO2 batteries and the rest were wiring fires that happen to be in circuits with Lithium batteries. I haven't found any info on the chemistry of the Lithium batteries in the Samsung devices or Hoverboards only "Lithium ION".

Any battery, including Lead Acid can smoke wires but for their size Lithium provide more short-circuit current.

Also, LiFePO4 batteries are reported to be incombustible - if that's not true I'll quit using them. There's nothing wrong with using a big AGM battery for the cNw electric start other than the loss of space for other things and the weight.

marshg246 said:

I would be interested in the source of your info. It is my understanding that the Boeing problems have been grouped (smoke). From what I've read the actual battery fires were LiCoO2 batteries and the rest were wiring fires that happen to be in circuits with Lithium batteries. I haven't found any info on the chemistry of the Lithium batteries in the Samsung devices or Hoverboards only "Lithium ION".

Any battery, including Lead Acid can smoke wires but for their size Lithium provide more short-circuit current.

Also, LiFePO4 batteries are reported to be incombustible - if that's not true I'll quit using them. There's nothing wrong with using a big AGM battery for the cNw electric start other than the loss of space for other things and the weight.

Click to expand...

So much for my original topic!! LOL!!

So I have been told by my electrical engineer colleagues at work, the thermal events that can happen with Lixxxx batteries typically occur due to an uncontrolled power discharge from the battery, and have more to do with the internal power electronics of the battery than its chemistry. Lead-acid batteries typically have a large internal resistance, and are self-regulating in charge and discharge. Not so with Lixxxx. They require much internal regulation to charge and discharge at vehicle appropriate rates. When these go awry, that is when you see the much publicized thermal events.

At work, we would absolutely love to embody the benefits of Lixxxx batteries, but part of the mission profile subjects the vehicle to threats that normal passenger vehicles just don't typically see, ("Some items in here do not react well to bullets...." lol) and the design burdens become unattractive in a hurry. It makes protecting fuel tanks look like a walk in the park...

The industry is a lot smarter about Lixxxx power electronics than it was a few short years ago, and even though I have seen some pretty horrific test results at work during worst case testing, I am confident enough that I am running a Shorai battery in my Norton, not to mention my ever-increasing collection of Dewalt 20V power tools. I have been using them mercilessly for 10 years without an issue or a battery failure.

My $0.02 - FWIW

marshg246 said:

Also, LiFePO4 batteries are reported to be incombustible - if that's not true I'll quit using them.

Click to expand...

Seems to be differing opinions on that. A Google search brings this up -

The LiFePO4 batteries are the safest type of Lithium batteries as they will not overheat, and even if punctured they will not catch on fire. ... Due to the oxygen being bonded tightly to the molecule, there is no danger of the battery erupting into flames like there is with Lithium-Ion.

Click to expand...

maylar said:

Seems to be differing opinions on that. A Google search brings this up -

Click to expand...

This appears to be an objectively written article, and goes through the various failure modes of Lixxxx batteries:

Broken link removed

FWIW

Even the LiFePo4 type Lithium Ion batteries can get a bit warm sometimes.
I had one in my Vin for awhile. It melted and destroyed the charging system. Luckily I ripped it out of the bike quickly so it did not burn the bike up.
It did destroy the charging system, which was a bit of a problem as we were 1500 miles from home and halfway through a two week tour. I didn't take any photos.
These fellows did take photos-

worntorn said:

Even the LiFePo4 type Lithium Ion batteries can get a bit warm sometimes.
I had one in my Vin for awhile. It melted and destroyed the charging system. Luckily I ripped it out of the bike quickly so it did not burn the bike up.
It did destroy the charging system, which was a bit of a problem as we were 1500 miles from home and halfway through a two week tour. I didn't take any photos.
These fellows did take photos-

Click to expand...

Wow - lucky it didn't take out the whole bike!

Any indication on what the root cause was? Any feed back from Shorai? How long ago was this?

Any memory of the model numbers of those batteries, how long ago, or what triggered them to get hot? Were there flames from any of them?

No flames on mine, lots of smoke so I literally ripped it out and got some burns in doing so.
This photo ( not my bike)shows the last battery in the bike smoking

Derek Wilson said:

Wow - lucky it didn't take out the whole bike!

Any indication on what the root cause was? Any feed back from Shorai? How long ago was this?

Click to expand...

My burned battery was a Ballistic LiFePo4. They weren't interested in my story. They did offer me partial warranty on a new battery- but the prorated cost was still higher than I paid full price
Also, I wasn't quite ready to let a LiFePo4 battery back in between my legs!
I'm still not!
The batteries in the photos are LFX18 Shorai and some others.
One is an Antigravity LiFePo4.
Glen

worntorn said:

My burned battery was a Ballistic LiFePo4. They weren't interested in my story. They did offer me partial warranty on a new battery- but the prorated cost was still higher than I paid full price
Also, I wasn't quite ready to let a LiFePo4 battery back in between my legs!
I'm still not!
The batteries in the photos are LFX18 Shorai and some others.
One is an Antigravity LiFePo4.
Glen

Click to expand...

OK, I'm convinced - back to AGM only for me.

This thread sure got hijacked!

Our charging systems aren’t adequate for those fancy batteries.

lazyeye6 said:

This thread sure got hijacked!

Click to expand...

A good battery is key to an electric start solution. So it’s pretty relevant.

lazyeye6 said:

This thread sure got hijacked!

Click to expand...

Yes and no.
The Shorai battery is definitely part of the e-start system for most? The posted official info that " LiFePo4 batteries cannot overheat" did beg correction.
Someone asked how old the melted batteries are-

The photos are from 2011 to 2017.
This video is from April 2020, 3 year old Shorai battery found smoking in the trunk of 2011 Lotus. Not sure what a modern Lotus has for charging. It's a standard Toyota auto engine.

swooshdave said:

Our charging systems aren’t adequate for those fancy batteries.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. I did my research on the Shorai before fitting it, and also know my charging system pretty well. I have balanced my electrical loads against the charging system capability, and have kept it within Shorai's recommended operating voltage range. I also have a digital voltmeter fitted and and keep a close eye on my operating voltage at all times.

So far so good....

I am sure that there is likely an untold story about everyone of these battery miss-haps

marshg246 said:

I would be interested in the source of your info.

Click to expand...

It found the information when I hit this link:


The lithium technology that raised all the dust was, as you pointed out, LiCoO2 which was the state-of-the-art when Boeing introduced the 777 in 2005. They went to LiFePO4) and/or LiMn2O4 when it became FAA approved in 2007 and haven't had any issues since; can you imagine the scrutiny, the meetings (hearings?) that took place, the lost time and money (Boeing & taxpayers)? Maybe this spurred the current lithium technology?

I apologize to the members if I cried wolf.

In any event I still won't use them in any form. They are expensive, the attendant maintenance chargers are expensive, and how do they behave at or near end-of-life (not yours I hope)?

When all is said and done it would appear that lithium batteries (current breed) offer a smaller, more dense and lighter energy storage device, so what?

Best.

Haven't there been previous threads about lithium batteries, pro and con. Wouldn't that be the place to have this
oil type thread? The question from the OP is:
"Could we hear from some folks that have had a CNW for a while and any comments that they have on the system? TIA"
And then he helps derail his own thread.
Matt sells the Shorai battery as an accessory item within his parts inventory and not solely for the electric start kit though
he recommends it. A glass mat battery will spin that starter just as easily.