Can't get 1st and 4th gears at same adjustment.

Although I haven't run the engine since original road testing and problems I am however rotating back wheel while changing the gears which in turn turns gearbox over. Same as running engine I would guess, just a bit slower.
I didn't notice any end float but will check that out again.
I must admit I didn't notice a groove on inside of thrust washer for transferring oil although I wasn't really looking for it. Was exactly does the thrust washer do ? Just take up free space on shaft ?
I also notice mine does not have the little dished washer on the cover end of main shaft between small pinion and bearing. I wonder if that is supposed to take up any small movement as well ?
As for the forks, I put them back in the way they came out, which doesn't mean much I suppose, but I did think it was odd that the one closet to the blind side of box had a flat on the end of it's shaft which I though was odd. Didn't appear to do anything. Maybe they are in reversed spots.
So looks like apart it comes again for another inspection. I have to go away to work next Thursday for 5 weeks and was hoping to have it sorted before then. We'll see.
On another note I did find out I need a complete clutch overhaul; plates,clutch sprocket inserts, and probably rubbers inside as well. I don't think you can even get those inserts any more from what I heard. Oh, old bikes, you just gotta love em :lol:

Some of the swap vendors have cork and ferodo inserts for Norton clutches, and they appear on ebay now and then. There are a lot of Nortons out there, they have to be available.
Nortons adverts of the 1930s advised that ferodo inserts had 3 times the friction of corks, so unless they were cork and the clutch was OK, the bonded stuff is better.
Getting what looked like little rocks into those holes looked a black art, however...

Yes, the bronze thrust washer takes up all the spare endfloat of the mainshaft.
Too long since I delved into gearboxes, someone a bit more current needs to add to this.

Opethiselps.

The following is a copy of info from the WDNorton website, possibly of some assistance? The M and I Manual referred to below is the military one which i earlier copied info from.
I always love it when instructions start out telling you how striaghtforward things are going to be.

"Dismantling and re-assembly of the Gearbox

Dismantling and re-assembly of the Norton 4 speed gearbox is generally relatively straight forward when following the instructions given in the Maintenance and Instruction Manual. There is no difference between the 16H and Big4 boxes apart from the gear wheels.
There are some point of attention. The M&I Manual does not give any figures for the total wear allowed on the Bronze Clutch Thrust Washer. Additionally, the gearbox exploded view of the M&I Manual shows a dished washer at the end of the main shaft, which in many cases is missing in many actual gearboxes, and the same exploded view does not give the Main Gear Wheel Sleeve Bearing Roller Retaining Washer, which is a crucial part in the gearbox! (I have drawn this washer into the original gearbox exploded view below, encircled by a red ring.)
The Clutch Thrust washer is the washer taking up the reaction forces when the Clutch is operated. Its positioned on the main axle facing the hardened steel ring that keeps the rollers of the Main Gear wheel in place. (Main Gear Wheel Sleeve Bearing Roller Retainer Washer).
The Bronze washer has three grooves in one face, which to be correctly positioned should be facing towards the Main gear wheel (Clutch). When these grooves are worn away, the washer needs to be replaced. The Clutch Thrust washer has a thickness of approximately 7/32 inch (5,55 mm). Maximum permissible wear of the Clutch Thrust Washer is 1,58 mm or 1/16th inch.
Investigation of the Clutch Thrust washer is indicated when the max end float of the clutch itself exceeds the 1,6 to 2,38 mm. This can be roughly inspected by pushing and pulling on the clutch in axial direction.
End float of the main axle should preferably between 0,254 and 0,58 mm (0,01 - 0,02 inch). If the end float is still outside this range while the Clutch Thrust washer is within the specified thickness, the main axle should be shimmed behind the Clutch Worm nut.
This is where the elusive dished washer may be become handy although flat shims will do the job as well. The exploded view drawings of the gearbox in the Maintenance and Instrucion Manual as well as various books, show a dished steel spring washer at the end of the main axle. I personally have never found such a washer in a gearbox, and wonder if they were actually used on all boxes, or only the later ones. Its not given in the spare parts list of either old or newer contracts or postwar civilian lists. The dimensions are I.D. 5/8", O.D. 1 7/16", steel thickness 1/64" and dished height 1/16" (as measured from an actual washer).
Main Gear Wheel Sleeve Bearing Roller Retainer Washer.
This hardened washer has the tendency to fracture. Two of the 3 gearboxes I have showed this to be the case. The washer is given in the spare parts lists (all) under spare part no 3598 (Main Gear Wheel Sleeve Bearing Roller Retainer Washer). I have however not been able to find original replacements for them, and had them made from a cold work tool steel (AISI D2 or UNS T30402) and hardened to 59 Rc. Remains of the original were measured to be 60 Rc so I think I am close enough."

Thanks Iain. Some very useful information. Today I dismantled clutch again since I have to overhaul it and checked end float while I was at it. There is none. I can't feel anything there and if there is it is very insignificant. There is a tiny bit of up and down movement and I mean tiny, and shaft spins freely. So I'm guessing my thrust washer is ok. Today, I found a new ratchet plate and pawl springs relatively cheap for the positive gear change set up. I'm going to replace both as I'm not convinced ratchet is in perfect condition. There is also a bush that ratchet spindle passes through in ratchet cam plate so will replace this in the hope it takes most of the sloppiness out of my gear stick. So I'm going to put off pulling gearbox apart again until I come back from work in just under 6 weeks time. If ratchet etc arrives before I go, I will fit and let you know outcome. Please stay tuned as this saga will continue. It has to, otherwise I'll never get to ride it.

You have to have a little endfloat.
If there is truly none, maybe this is the problem ?

I don't understand how one can get a lot of end float on main shaft when the gearbox cover end is a tight fit in a bearing. Unless of course that bearing was knackered. I had to punch the main shaft out of the bearing a little bit at a time while wedging the cover gap to be able to get cover off. Same with layshaft bearing on the blind side. Couldn't just pull it out I actually had to hit the main gear/sprocket spindle as carefully as possible so main gear actually hit the gear next to it that was on layshaft which in turn pushed layshaft out of it's bearing. On reassembly tapped layshaft back into it's bearing and also cover/bearing onto main shaft.

I've always thought the same about measuring crank endfloat.
But once hot, things are different.

If you don't put retaining lockrings etc on machinery bearings, everything soon goes walkabout !
Even though it took brute force to assemble it there...

I see the 'tips' section somewhere suggests grinding a bit out of the centre id of old bearings so they slide better, to measure endfloat. The black art of british motorcycles.....

Ozzie; I followed the thread up until you opened up the box. I trust it has worked previously?
I was going to mention the link arm between positve stop mechanism and the gear selector arm. On my '36 machine it was straight and the gear selector arm was longer. Just wondering if it has worked previously in this configuration.

The positive stop mechanism (Dolls Head) basically gives the possibility to move the foot pedal a fixed distance to select a gear then return to the "original" position. The stroke of the arm out the back of the PSM,(via the link rod and then length of gear selector arm) determin the rotation of the gearwheel that rotates the selector plate.
So you are looking for a pawl and ratchet movement that translates to four gear selection positions. The fact that you can select all gears by hand (Presumably by moving the gear selector arm) suggests that the box internals are ok.

One of the biggest problems with the gear selection of this type of box is play in the pos stop mechanism; from clevis pins, to jaws, to ratchet wear. (The girder fork"Damping spring" clevis pins were often used to replace the link clevis pins as they were larger and hard).
If it has worked before I would concentrate on the PSM, it looks sloppy in the video (The bike looks superb!).
If I find how to attach a pic of an original adn working set up I will post it.

Interested to know the fix...
Cheers
J
.

I'm inclined to agree that the problem lies with the positive stop mechanism. Nortons did improve on the design but it doesn't seem to have found its way into the parts books. The lever on this bike is far too sloppy.

Later WD boxes have a shouldered bush at the rear of the mechanism which supports the ratchet plate in the rear of the cover and perhaps more importantly, the 'Return Spring Cover Plate' had an integral bush which passes through a larger aperture in the outerl cover.

You clearly have an early outer cover as it has the simple Norton logo and no mention of 'Patent Applied for' or the later 'Patent Number' - puzzlingly though, your cover seems to have been retro-fitted with the brass gear position indicator plate which was normally found on later WD models with a long pointer. You have the correct early short pointer but no engraved line to indicate neutral - this would normally be underneath the middle point of the 'O' in Norton.

The ratchet plate does actually have a location for neutral - it's the flat on the centre peak. You should be able to see a wear line there - effectively in this position, although not positively located, the pawl spring pressure to select the next gear is not present.

These boxes are a little bit on the long travel side and best enjoyed with large boots but it should be quite a sweet change with just the merest mechanical 'snick' as neutral is passed. If you have the same ratios as the 16H then the big jump between 2nd and 3rd takes some getting used to but changing is pleasant enough.

I'll take some photos of a late positive stop mechanism to show the differences.

This is what you need to play with Ozzie -





Not mine unfortunately, it belongs to the VMCC.

These are the parts which altered over the years :-



On the left hand side is the later cover with the larger aperture for the bush on the spring cover plate which is just about visible.

The right hand cover is probably like yours and uses a spring cover plate which gives little support even when unworn. Tou can see the shouldered bush which sits in the rear cover also.

I think that if I were in your position, I'd bush the inner and outer covers at least or alternatively look for some WD16H parts to replace with. I wonder also if that non standard bent control rod is pushing and pulling on the bushes unneccesarily ? I see no reason for it not to be straight (unless to clear non-standard oil pipes).

Edgar Franks makes the point that both the camplate plunger and the ratchet detent should be in the same gear before adjusting the control rod. It seems obvious but it will cause problems if one reaches top before the other.

Iain will know that I often recommend him but if you're stuck for components or engineering, it's worth having a word with Ken McIntosh in NZ as the 'doll's head' was also fitted to the race machines. I have a set of his clutch internals and adjusters in my 16H and it makes for a very clean lift and smooth engagement with no risk of oil contamination. I've just come back from abusing my transmission in Normandy with a group of similar bikes and no hint of any slip or drag.

Ok... so how do you post a picture on here. :?:

I agree with "79x100" explanation and diagnosis and love the sectioned gbox; what a centrepiece for the dinning room table! Ouch, sorry dear....
I didnt realise the brass gear position plate was WD only. I have one for you if you find the hole is worn and your not in the position to have it bushed.
J

79x100 said:

Iain will know that I often recommend him but if you're stuck for components or engineering, it's worth having a word with Ken McIntosh in NZ as the 'doll's head' was also fitted to the race machines. I have a set of his clutch internals and adjusters in my 16H and it makes for a very clean lift and smooth engagement with no risk of oil contamination. I've just come back from abusing my transmission in Normandy with a group of similar bikes and no hint of any slip or drag.

Click to expand...

I too can recommend the man and what he sells.
Coincidently i called in a few days ago to buy a bolt (dull chrome works of art they are) and the conversation wandered onto gearboxes. I was treated to a 1/2 hour lesson on the dolls head box, and conveniently there was a dismantled work in progress example on the workbench. Sadly the student was not of the same standard as the teacher but i certainly came away more knowledgable than i entered.

Jonwawa said:

Ok... so how do you post a picture on here. :?: J

Click to expand...

there's a sticky at the top of the Commando Forum page with a how to on pictures.

ok, thanks Iain....

If you look closely you can see the linkage arragement, cover type etc.

First pic posting. lets see how it goes...

Nice first pic, do you have a full bike shot as well.

Here she is.... its a 35 built 36 model CS1.

What a beauty, and probably more go than my and 79x100's 16H's combined.
Although someone may have claimed on another forum (tongue in cheek) to have been pulling wheelies on his 16H lately - H for hyperbole that would be.

The CS with the panel tank is a very elegant machine. All the extras on that one.

The short neutral indicator pointer was certainly still fitted during the early war years but consecutive parts books give no clue as to when the change actually took place. Typically, they didn't alter the parts numbers. I'd suspect that many earlier bikes have gained ex-WD end covers and spring cover plates to obtain the better spindle support. I'm running an early set up on my 1939 bike (because I'm a rivet counter) but I do have the later type ready to use if everything becomes too floppy.

Iain, you must have come across me winding up the M20 gang. They don't know if I'm wheelieing or not...all they hear is a 16H coming on the cam before it flies past them....

It would seem that the Norton box's big gap between 2nd and 3rd gives a nice short gap between 3rd and 4th which means that if the M20s have to change down to 3rd, they're running much slower than the 'Sweet 16s'

This one is a "Patent applied for"..... cover.
Guess the owner of this thread is away right now.
The Positive Stop Mechanism is pretty much similar in a alaydown box. I have a similar issue with a 54 Model 88 (Iron Head) but its only on third. 1and 2 snick in sweetly, third you have to take a double stroke at it to go then 4th is clean again. No conclusion as yet...

I have no experience with the singles, but my experience with my commando box should transfer. I had a lot of problems with worn bushings, worn springs and a worn pawl. All the slop added up to a semi functional shift selection. It was frustrating me until I renewed those items. Now it is all slop free and functioning as it should.