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- Aug 10, 2014
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new folks will be looking at all info given, for the first time thoI wondered when the inevitable advertisement would get here....
new folks will be looking at all info given, for the first time thoI wondered when the inevitable advertisement would get here....
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I hate thinking that I'm going to go through $2K each time I want to roll the dice in order to have piece of mind that the bottom-ends are healthy. In the grand scheme of things, jugs just aren't that expensive to replace compared to the whole motor.
As I look for a new (to me) plane (most likely a Baron), I am running across a lot of planes that have engines that are in the 1100 smoh to 1400 smoh range, which isn't that bad in my opinion as these engines are run out to 2500+ hours all the time. It's just a matter of replacing jugs on-condition.
However, if the bottom-end is making metal, it's overhaul time. Or, let's just say it's 5-figure time as any work that involves splitting the case is going to be $10K minimum and $20K likely before you get to a full overhaul.
I just rejected the Baron I was looking at because I had the shop doing the pre-purchase remove the rocker covers and push rod tubes to get to the lifters and open up the bottom end to borescope the cam. They found spalling on some of the lobes. They only opened up one engine (the one with the lowest compressions) and the bill was $1500. I would have told them to open the other engine if the first engine had checked out. I think I would have been closer to $2000 if they'd opened both engines.
A lot of these birds have been sitting for anywhere from 3 to 10 years. The one I was looking at earlier had run 300 hours a year for the first 5 years, sat for 8 years, then has run 250 hours a year for the past 4 years. A new one I'm looking at now has only had 36 hours in the past 8 years, but the logbooks show fresh oil and camguard at each annual until the last one in 2014. Prior to 2008 it was running about 150 hours a year since engine installation.
The engine times and the fact that most of these birds don't have didly-squat for avionics make them very attractive from a price perspective, if you can convince the owner of the reality of the true appraisal (worth) of their "asset." However, it's a non-starter if the engines are completely toast as I can just up my budget and get a twin with recent engines. I don't have that kind of budget right now, so if that's the best course of action, I'll be plane-less for awhile.
I hate thinking that I'm going to go through $2K each time I want to roll the dice in order to have piece of mind that the bottom-ends are healthy. In the grand scheme of things, jugs just aren't that expensive to replace compared to the whole motor.
Have I found the most cost effective way to judge the health of the cam/lifters? What's the cheapest way to do it?
.... one has to remember Andover Norton do not manufacture the cams and followers they are reliant on suppliers using the correct materials and hardening procedures. i would very much doubt if they have in house testing facilitys to check each and every batch of components ?
so yes there may be some BS regarding made to factory specs etc as they are totally reliant on suppliers getting it right
full auto one has to remember Andover Norton do not manufacture the cams and followers they are reliant on suppliers using the correct materials and hardening procedures
i would very much doudt if they have in house testing facilitys to check each and every batch of components ?
so yes there may be some BS regarding made to factory specs etc as they are totally reliant on suppliers getting it right
in the perfect world a solution would be simple but we have to accept the fact the cam and follower design was flawed from the get go
Norton had many issues with incompatible materials and this is still rearing its ugly head today numerous suppliers have tried different options steel billet / chilled iron / hard facing by welding
various different combinations of oil and still no definative solution to why they continue to fail
i have some sympathy for AN as a supplier they are limited to provide materials which are to the original flawed design (made from non compatible materials ) as they were OE by Norton otherwise they will not fit and work without major modification to the cases / cylinders . AN material specs may have changed but the actual design must remain the same ( flawed )
many automotive manufacturers in the 1980s and 90s also had premature camshaft & follower failiures only through development have these been all but eliminated today
the last Commando rolled of the production line in the mid 70`s and as owners we have to accept that vehicles produced over 40 years ago will have issues that cannot be be solved without a complete re design it is part and parcel of owning an old machine , we can spend thousands on restoration and upgraded parts to make our bikes more user freindly
but they are still a 50 year old design and will not perform and handle like a new 2018 machine which has cost millions to develop to that standard
That's all true Knut, but these aren't Mazda 3s.
They are ancient bikes for which owners can still purchase nearly every part. Those parts are likely sourced from a very large number of small manufacturer/vendors, many will be enthusiasts of the marque. Realistically stuff goes wrong from time to time in that type of supply chain.
....simple really AN have no in house machine shop so do not have control over production
No. This kind of QA is equally adaptable to small-scale manufacture. What do you think happens at Ferrari, for instance?As for QA your theory works for large automotive companies with QA resources
as Andover are in effect an independent retail outlet producing small batches of components they are reliant on
the suppliers expertese calipers microscopes and hardness testers can not check if a camshaft or followers has been nitrided or laser hardened to the correct spec or even if wrong grade base
material has been used in production this is where they are reliant on the outside producers expertise and material choice.
the classic motorcycle industry is in effect a cottage industry and small volume production runs are required to get things made
If you want to make camshafts / followers speak with a camshaft manufacturer and tap in to thier knowledge of production
I need some education to satisfy my curiosity. Are the stellite pads soft before being brazed to the follower body or is it the brazing process that is causing the softness through improper heat? Not that it probably matters to the end user.
Jim, is there anyway for a guy in his garage to do a scratch test or something to figure out whether he has a soft pad? Or do we all send our followers to you for testing? I can see the need for a lot of existing followers to be tested or eventually replaced with followers that are certified "hard".
Russ
PS (edit) - I guess what I am wondering with my above stated curiosity is whether a set of followers could be hardened and tempered to a uniform state using a kiln or furnace for heat followed by proper cooling techniques. I suppose this last might be part of the quality issue in the first place if the hardness is destroyed through the brazing process.
If making money was the only intent, then there would definitely be easier ways to do it.
Which way would that be, Jim? I am assuming that abandoning the business is not an option you thought of.
Seriously, I would rather pay 10-fold for a lifter/camshaft that was guaranteed to work, than a rock-bottom price for a product I can't trust with built-in flaws dating 70 years back.
If the initial design can't be trusted, then mitigating actions have to be prescribed, e.g., exchange every 20 000 miles, etc.
-Knut
I'd hate to see lifters going for 4-thousand dollars for a full set. Kinda makes the old ones attractive.
Jim, have you ever tested a pad which has suffered a separation failure for hardness? I suppose it would be too much to ask that testing for hardness might help weed out that potential failure as well.
Improvements keep coming for the old Nortons. Gauges and carbs come to mind, plus a few backyard industry guys making parts -like myself.
I wish you would............... I am still waiting for my ordered head steady a loooooong time
whats the history of the modified norton follower in this picture? i have one single one in my collection and i wondered who did this mod?
Then Ken Canaga told me about some Norton racers converting to BSA lifters. I can't remember who started those conversions - maybe Ken can tell us.
Perhaps via cNw, they have been out of stock since late last year.Do you have one on order from me?