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Seems to me that you need to start making Norton parts, like all of them, and it will be done right. We're waiting...
Cam and follower tests.
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Seems to me that you need to start making Norton parts, like all of them, and it will be done right. We're waiting...
So, I turn out a quality product for ten long years, AN drop thge ball and then go into hiding, and I'm supposed to fix their problems for them? Really?
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As an expat Yank, I think Swoosh was commenting on your perceived level of grumpiness.
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You are spot on.
While it's a tremendous achievement to make the cylinder head, one of, if not the most complex part on the bike but it sure seems to me that there would be a greater appreciation as to what it would take to make EVERY part on the bike available. I don't know the complete count but they must have thousands of different parts to cover all the years.
As for not responding to every issue on a public forum, there can be a myriad of reasons, all of them valid.
I didn't see the whole story unravel so I'm going to leave that as the only caveat.
My level of grumpiness notwithstanding, my posts remain fact driven. If people are going to comment, perhaps in all fairness, they should read all the relevant stuff. I'm going to be thousands out of pocket, through no fault of mine, or the engine builder's, but due to the level of quality of parts produced as spares. AN haven't even commented on Jim's failure in this whole thread. The people who should be held accountable are being defended and praised. I have taken a lot more criticism for bringing this to light than the sellers of this stuff. Tell me again how this is my fault? When are AN going to man up and admit they have a problem? They have steadfastly refused to do so.
Who wouldn't be grumpy?
Who wouldn't be grumpy?
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There are many reasons not to respond. And not responding does not mean nothing is being done. Calling them out is not going to change that. The fact that they are currently not selling the items is indication enough that something is being done. What exactly and when is not up to us to decide.
Let me give you a hypothetical scenario. I sell you parts. They turn out to be defective. You claim they cost you thousands of dollars in damage. You continuously rant about the situation, being quite adversarial. I acknowledge the parts are defective on a public forum. My lawyer beats me senseless and quits.
Why does my lawyer quit?
Because he doesn’t like losing.
Let me give you a hypothetical scenario. I sell you parts. They turn out to be defective. You claim they cost you thousands of dollars in damage. You continuously rant about the situation, being quite adversarial. I acknowledge the parts are defective on a public forum. My lawyer beats me senseless and quits.
Why does my lawyer quit?
Because he doesn’t like losing.
Fast Eddie
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I’m totally with swooshdave on this. The fact that AN have withdrawn followers from sale tells me they have done so for a reason.
I hope, and absolutely expect, them to be learning from the current findings and using this learning to improve their future offerings.
Expecting them to come out and say that the bill for every engine rebuild, that included a possible faulty follower, over the last 30 years, is down to them is, quite frankly, either naive, or worse.
Ken, if you hadn’t been so publicly adversarial then perhaps, just perhaps, you may have got a better response from them. But now you have no chance. That boat has sailed my friend. And your continued rants only serve to look bad on you.
If I recall correctly, you got circa 30,000 miles out of your rebuild, that’s 10 times more than a Combat back in the day!
Should you have gotten more... I’d say yes.
Is this a warranty claim... no!
You can always buy your next set of followers from an alternative supplier of quality Commando parts...
What’s my point? You had an engine rebuild, it’s not ideal, but hardly unexpected, the witch hunt ain’t helping anyone.
As ever, all only IMHO...
I hope, and absolutely expect, them to be learning from the current findings and using this learning to improve their future offerings.
Expecting them to come out and say that the bill for every engine rebuild, that included a possible faulty follower, over the last 30 years, is down to them is, quite frankly, either naive, or worse.
Ken, if you hadn’t been so publicly adversarial then perhaps, just perhaps, you may have got a better response from them. But now you have no chance. That boat has sailed my friend. And your continued rants only serve to look bad on you.
If I recall correctly, you got circa 30,000 miles out of your rebuild, that’s 10 times more than a Combat back in the day!
Should you have gotten more... I’d say yes.
Is this a warranty claim... no!
You can always buy your next set of followers from an alternative supplier of quality Commando parts...
What’s my point? You had an engine rebuild, it’s not ideal, but hardly unexpected, the witch hunt ain’t helping anyone.
As ever, all only IMHO...
Mr. Rick
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I am certainly sympathetic to your position, Ken, but I didn't see anyone suggesting that you "fix their problem for them".
I did see that you may have missed a business opportunity, using your contacts and expertise to make and sell high-quality, individually tested, followers for the Norton Commando. Maybe others as well?
Much simpler than a cylinder head, and right now, you'd be the only game in town, have the entire world market to yourself.
Followers have not been withdrawn from sale, we currently can't get them ground fast enough as the old grinder retired and his employee who took over the company is overwhelmed with work. I have loads here, but would need to dress them to get them to fit as customers these days want them to drop straight in - if I had some delivered that did that I would be concerned. A new supplier has been found and they should have samples with us shortly. To get a new supplier up and running to make them as some suggest is far cheaper than making cylinder heads - think again, it is not, and the numbers involved are higher than that to make a cylinder head, yes I have had quotes on both and know the costs involved, both massively expensively projects, though followers edge it - I would not be being my job if I hadn't, of course we don't advertise all we do much like any other companies, why should we.
And, yes I have replied to Jim's failure - he emailed directly and did not use the forum to do business. The fact he used a retailer to buy the parts means that the obligation from us is to the retailer, not Jim directly as we should not be circumventing our retailers, like in any type of business. In real terms there would be no need to have replied to Jim's email, but seeing as he presented some good evidence and findings made it just courteous to reply with our opinions. The parts in question will be on their way back to me via the retailer shortly as the brazers wish to test them themselves.
And, yes I have replied to Jim's failure - he emailed directly and did not use the forum to do business. The fact he used a retailer to buy the parts means that the obligation from us is to the retailer, not Jim directly as we should not be circumventing our retailers, like in any type of business. In real terms there would be no need to have replied to Jim's email, but seeing as he presented some good evidence and findings made it just courteous to reply with our opinions. The parts in question will be on their way back to me via the retailer shortly as the brazers wish to test them themselves.
Onder
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In today's world, people have been conditioned to expect that EVERYTHING is totally absolutely positively guaranteed FOREVER plus a large cash settlement tax free. So if you buy a part that fails you basically have won the lottery. Of course this isnt the case but it does give
a supplier a reason to not supply something that is or is perceived to be trouble.
At this point it is sort of like the Combat fiasco in that the failure of cams seems due to bad followers. So now the move is, as has been mentioned, to be the fellow who offers cams and followers that are 110% sorted. Fullauto heads were not cheap but he did sell all he made
and I bought one no complaints. If he had sleeved the exhaust threads and beefed up the studs and asked for a lot more money I still would
have bought one. Norton owners at this point usually can afford expensive bits. We are old and have spare dosh.
Finally if my cam died at 30k Id shrug and buy another. Annoyed, yes, but back in the day 30k on a brit bike in the states was not common.
It is my expectation to have something go wrong with an old brit bike. You pay to play.
a supplier a reason to not supply something that is or is perceived to be trouble.
At this point it is sort of like the Combat fiasco in that the failure of cams seems due to bad followers. So now the move is, as has been mentioned, to be the fellow who offers cams and followers that are 110% sorted. Fullauto heads were not cheap but he did sell all he made
and I bought one no complaints. If he had sleeved the exhaust threads and beefed up the studs and asked for a lot more money I still would
have bought one. Norton owners at this point usually can afford expensive bits. We are old and have spare dosh.
Finally if my cam died at 30k Id shrug and buy another. Annoyed, yes, but back in the day 30k on a brit bike in the states was not common.
It is my expectation to have something go wrong with an old brit bike. You pay to play.
There are many Domi's out there on original cams with far more 30k on them, there is also a UK MK3 owner that has owned it since new and yes, rebuilds the engine every 80K, it has done 260K so far, some parts go on for ages, some don't and with a myriad of reasons why some fail early and some don't, what is the expectation, hard to tell when so few have kept records. Maybe a database on here where we could record such details and when what mileage cam fitted / old / new / reground followers, pistons rings, spring rates and heights etc would help.
To be 110% sorted, you could get close but at what cost - Cobalt based followers, cams made from the case hardening steel that has just come out from under patent in the last year or so. Very expensive way to go, and then someone does not clean their parts correctly prior to assembly - bugger, chill cast grit and glass everywhere.
To be 110% sorted, you could get close but at what cost - Cobalt based followers, cams made from the case hardening steel that has just come out from under patent in the last year or so. Very expensive way to go, and then someone does not clean their parts correctly prior to assembly - bugger, chill cast grit and glass everywhere.
Fast Eddie
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Ash, you appear to be quashing my theory that you are looking to improve the parts based on learnings from this thread and recent experiences. Is this correct?
Just a comment on the follower manufacturing...
If they are brazed in an oven as I am familiar with in the automotive world (a large oven upon which the parts travel through on a conveyor at a set speed) then even oven temp can be a real issue.
Cold parts in the oven can be difficult to remove completely. Parts ‘cooked’ in the cold part will clearly be exposed to a different process to the others.
Automotive companies put a lot of effort into these things, and when they can’t be sure, they use ‘dummy parts’ to make up the batch, this ensures every batch is the same (in terms of temp drop when parts enter the oven) and they can use the dummy parts in the known cold spots, because it doesn’t matter. Yes, this reduces efficient slightly, but it increases quality yield.
Another issue is ambient temperature effecting the latent temperature of the parts and thus the temp drop when the oven is loaded. Storing in the factory for a minimum period (arrived at through experimentation) can elevate this.
Just a comment on the follower manufacturing...
If they are brazed in an oven as I am familiar with in the automotive world (a large oven upon which the parts travel through on a conveyor at a set speed) then even oven temp can be a real issue.
Cold parts in the oven can be difficult to remove completely. Parts ‘cooked’ in the cold part will clearly be exposed to a different process to the others.
Automotive companies put a lot of effort into these things, and when they can’t be sure, they use ‘dummy parts’ to make up the batch, this ensures every batch is the same (in terms of temp drop when parts enter the oven) and they can use the dummy parts in the known cold spots, because it doesn’t matter. Yes, this reduces efficient slightly, but it increases quality yield.
Another issue is ambient temperature effecting the latent temperature of the parts and thus the temp drop when the oven is loaded. Storing in the factory for a minimum period (arrived at through experimentation) can elevate this.
A good friend of mine has a 73 850 which he purchased new and used as sole transport for years. It has covered 128,000 miles to date and has only had the head off for a valve job, no other engine or transmission work. I believe even the clutch is untouched.
He's pulling the engine down for its first rebuild this winter.
It's going to be interesting to see that cam!
Glen
He's pulling the engine down for its first rebuild this winter.
It's going to be interesting to see that cam!
Glen
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acadian
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Well, this certainly is a thread for the ages.
I guess I'll be approaching the assembly stage of my new build with fingers solidly crossed.
My followers were sent to Jim for radiusing/grinding to match the web cam I purchased from him, they were pulled out of an otherwise original 70 motor, and seem to be in good nick.
I guess I'll be approaching the assembly stage of my new build with fingers solidly crossed.
My followers were sent to Jim for radiusing/grinding to match the web cam I purchased from him, they were pulled out of an otherwise original 70 motor, and seem to be in good nick.
Not at all, why not improve where we can, it makes sense. But we can't blindly leap from one idea to another which is what happened in the Norton world since 1974 - they could not even read and fit a sprag clutch then, look at the MK3. After 2200 miles in 8 days to the rally and back, the bike did not miss a beat even with the temperature at 33 Degrees, the brothers year old Z1000 is another story - it struggled and even Kawasaki UK admit it operates strangely but that is the way it is, because if this we stopped every 40 or 50 miles or so. The electric starter did not miss a trick either.
Belt brazing is old hat, but has a place, and only really used for tinware and non sensitive dimension components these days.
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What a great reply. Thank you.
Hahahahaha! better break out the kneepads and drip tray, Dave, you're spilling a bit !
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Did you get out of the Norton head business because you didn't want to sell them anymore or no one wanted to work with you? [HASHTAG]#askingforafriend[/HASHTAG]
Oh, this is rich ! AN learning from this and improving their product? Excuse me, but their official line is that there isn't a problem!! I'm very tempted to release all my e-mails to and from Joe and Ashley and see where we stand then. You might have a different view.
Problem is, Dave, from the PMs I've received in support, you don't seem to have any friends, so you can't be asking for one, now can you?
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