Blown engine (19/8/2018 update)

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JimC wrote;
A number of suppliers of parts and upgrades have either died or retired. To validate your claim, please list the new suppliers replacing those who are no longer in business.
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Andover Norton are a company who are having made and supplying, the vast majority of parts for the Commando in (mainly) standard specification and their catalogue for other models is also expanding. Their catalogue far exceeds the BSA Regal parts availability prior to when Joe Seifert bought the company.
 
Maney parts drying up are a big loss but you can still get heavy duty racing cases from RGM. One piece cranks are available from Moldex and Rody in the US. Those are the important bits.
 
JimC said:
You are missing my point. Norton parts and upgrade suppliers are fewer today than yesterday and there will be fewer tomorrow.
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I am not sure about this - certainly in the UK retail outlets have gone , used to be a buzz to visit bike dealers .. Gus Kuhn , Ian Kennedy , Joe Francis , Dunstalls , Russells etc but the quality of stuff has improved with CNNC batch machining , though its a wait for the delivery van. And there are still some of the former industry suppliers around such as wassals , amal etc
And now thanks to the internet and this site I can see there are US sources from whom I shall be buying in the future. So may be its all gone global..

And it is entirely possible as interest falls off in the US and UK as we so called baby boomers croak it .. new consumers for classic vehicles might well emerge in Asia , China and not to mention the former Soviets.. If they buy UK football clubs it is not inconceivable they will get into classic bikes...as toys objects of desire whatever

The Tannoy speakers I bought new for £64 in 1971 are now cult objects in Japan at around £3000 .
Dare say you can get better , but there is a something about the sound people are prepared to pay for. So it will be with Nortons. In the words of Chuck Berry ' you never can tell'
 
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I would imagine for every independent aftermarket performance part sold Andover Norton would sell 50 stock type parts, maybe even at 100 to 1.
That is not to take anything away from those who create parts of a performance nature but Kibblewhite probably sell 100 valves for every 'hot camshaft because a good amount of owners do stock type builds ? (Or enhanced reliability KW , internal coatings, ignition, carburetors etc)

As they (AN) made more parts available it became easier to rebuild that old Commando that had sat in the back of some shed for decades, I'd hazard a guess the rate of Commando's being reborn is as high as ever if not more so than 30 years ago so the rate of survivors is going up not down as it most likely was in the 1980/90's.
More on the road is more visibility for more interest to potential new owners and another attractant is easy parts availability. (Thanks Andover Norton)
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I fail to see how a set of billet cases and a fancy crankshaft has any bearing on an engine that failed due to no oil at the crankshaft journal.
Fix the cause not the symptom, weld the case, check for true, do whatever the crankshaft needs, two replacement connecting rods and careful reassembly after checking all including oil delivery items and galleries.
Lower end done.
Pretty easy when typed from the comfort of my couch on a sunny morning.
 
I might add, the aftermarket electric start manufacturers themselves will most likely give the more mature owners the option of another 10 years in the saddle where it would have mean't giving up kick start bikes even if still able to ride mentally.
 
Time Warp said:
I fail to see how a set of billet cases and a fancy crankshaft has any bearing on an engine that failed due to no oil at the crankshaft journal.

Pretty easy when typed from the comfort of my couch on a sunny morning.
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Maney cases are cast, not billet.

The OP has a range of choices which include new cast cases or welding. But the crank is not guaranteed to be recoverable.

With Steve moving on a new 3 piece crank is not currently a choice, more expensive one piece items or original items are.
 
jseng1 said:
Maney parts drying up are a big loss but you can still get heavy duty racing cases from RGM. One piece cranks are available from Moldex and Rody in the US. Those are the important bits.
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I understand those race cases from RGM are AN supplied cases.
 
Time Warp said:
I fail to see how a set of billet cases and a fancy crankshaft has any bearing on an engine that failed due to no oil at the crankshaft journal.
Fix the cause not the symptom, weld the case, check for true, do whatever the crankshaft needs, two replacement connecting rods and careful reassembly after checking all including oil delivery items and galleries.
Lower end done.
Pretty easy when typed from the comfort of my couch on a sunny morning.
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Your right of course that spending money of fancy parts won't solve the root cause of the problem, the mention of Maney cases came about due to the uncertainty about the condition and fixability of the current cases. So if i was faced with buying new cases or Money, i would have thought Maney would have been a better choice, turns out i was wrong.


As for
SteveA said:
Maney cases are cast, not billet.

The OP has a range of choices which include new cast cases or welding. But the crank is not guaranteed to be recoverable.

With Steve moving on a new 3 piece crank is not currently a choice, more expensive one piece items or original items are.
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As it happens ive not stripped the engine any further. so can comment on the condition of the cases, i hope they can be saved but won't know until its all stripped down.
The crank looked a bit rough from what i could see but the same applies as above.
 
Hi Adam,
I'm sorry to hear your story, but as others have said and I'm sure you've already realized, the consequences could have been so much worse.

I was just looking at your crank journal in closeup, and I wonder if it really is toast. Most toast can be saved by scraping off the burnt bits, and I wonder if the same can be said for your crank. I reckon a lot of what you see on the journal is the remnants of the melted shell bearing. So, if Sir James of the Comstock is right and the crank is still slightly oversize, I'm wondering if there may be a chance you can save it?






Cheers,

cliffa
 
Im aware of the things that could of happened, i've been unfortunate to have come off a bike a couple of years ago and am fairly thankful that i'm not in the same situation or worse (high sided an SV650 - broken shoulder, broken ribs and bleed on brain) the result was 7 months off work. its not something i want to repeat.

as regards to the crank, it may clean-up time will tell i guess.

at least it was nice where it went bang :)
 
Adam_R said:
Im aware of the things that could of happened, i've been unfortunate to have come off a bike a couple of years ago and am fairly thankful that i'm not in the same situation or worse (high sided an SV650 - broken shoulder, broken ribs and bleed on brain) the result was 7 months off work. its not something i want to repeat.

as regards to the crank, it may clean-up time will tell i guess.

at least it was nice where it went bang :)
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That is a lovely spot Adam.
 
84ok said:
nahh, i get it, the sky is falling lol
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No, the sky is not falling. Reality can be unpleasant, though. Count the number of suppliers who have died, retired or simply closed shop in the last ten years. Then count the number of new suppliers in the last ten years. Denial is not a river in Egypt. You’ll catch on, someday.
 
Adam_R said:
Your right of course that spending money of fancy parts won't solve the root cause of the problem, the mention of Maney cases came about due to the uncertainty about the condition and fixability of the current cases. So if i was faced with buying new cases or Money, i would have thought Maney would have been a better choice, turns out i was wrong.
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I don't think I was right but was just saying.
Any time something like this happens its a 'bummer so all I mean't was there is always the option to keep things in check (A realistic rebuild budget without cutting the corners that matter)

A bit of quiet time to strip it down and parts cleaned for assessment will soon show what you are up against.
 
cliffa said:
Hi Adam,
I'm sorry to hear your story, but as others have said and I'm sure you've already realized, the consequences could have been so much worse.

I was just looking at your crank journal in closeup, and I wonder if it really is toast. Most toast can be saved by scraping off the burnt bits, and I wonder if the same can be said for your crank. I reckon a lot of what you see on the journal is the remnants of the melted shell bearing. So, if Sir James of the Comstock is right and the crank is still slightly oversize, I'm wondering if there may be a chance you can save it?






Cheers,

cliffa
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Briggs cranks look the same after the con rod seized on the crank, the con rod is made from an alloy similar to shell bearing lining. You recover the crank by using hydrochloric acid which dissolves the alloy but leaves the crank untouched. I have used this 3 times and the crank journal revealed was undamaged, just needed a new rod.
 
Parts are not the problem. Money and time more to the point. Commandos and late Triumph stuff are far easier to source than 20 years ago. We are spoiled for choice. Im doing a Rickman Enfield up and a bit of cold water in the face as far as parts go!
After a complete teardown and inspection report back.
 
Onder said:
Parts are not the problem. Money and time more to the point. Commandos and late Triumph stuff are far easier to source than 20 years ago. We are spoiled for choice. Im doing a Rickman Enfield up and a bit of cold water in the face as far as parts go!
After a complete teardown and inspection report back.
Click to expand...
Bingo
 
kommando said:
Briggs cranks look the same after the con rod seized on the crank, the con rod is made from an alloy similar to shell bearing lining. You recover the crank by using hydrochloric acid which dissolves the alloy but leaves the crank untouched. I have used this 3 times and the crank journal revealed was undamaged, just needed a new rod.
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I had a couple of similar experiences, one with a Subaru Robin engine run without oil. That crank looked about the same. Machine shop polished it all right off with no crank damage just a new rod.

The other just happened on a tractor engine. Engine has an automatic fuel shut off run by oil pressure. Diaphragm failed and sent gasoline to bearing and it seized tight. It was a main bearing on an ancient JD Two-cylinder and it looked like crap but not as bad as this Norton. It cleaned up with 1500 and crocus cloth. Machine shop that made the new bearing said to try acid, which I was prepared to do but it cleaned up way easy without it.

I'd give it a shot with muriatic acid which you can buy in Home Depot. Nasty stuff, use protection.

I used it to get rust stains out of a fiberglass boat. Nothing else would touch it but the acid was a miracle.
 
I think its time for an update on the situation,
I bought a house so this is moving slowly, nearly sold the bike but glad i didn't!
Stuck the bike on the ramp in my new garage and whipped the engine out.
ive not got detailed pictures of this as oil and cameras dont mix too well :/
In the meantime i was put in contact with somebody who has kindly offered to help me out.

Stripped down to the bare cases, its a bit of a mess.
fortunately and has been suggested before i the crank should be saveable, it was put in a lathe, the bearing material removed (apparently it was practically welded on) and checked to make sure it was still straight (it was)
Ive got that here in the house to go to the engineer for regrind ( the radius, ive been advised was there )
the cases are in the process of repair, Bob is making a plate for the hole and finding me a welder to take on the work, aside from the hole there are a few cracks to deal with. (ive put a wanted ad up for cases, incase this doesnt work out)

as for the cause, i'm still not sure, there are so many variables. but i dont want to dwell on why? rather put that energy into fixing it.

this will be a long term build given the costs involved and im sure ill be asking plenty of questions.
for now ill wait and see about the cases, and get the crank reground. then figure out what to do about the bores, sleeve to STD or go 920? oh and the rods and and and.....

 
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