Blind corners

When Hailwood started racing, his dad bought him a Mondial. Then his dad had 1000 Hondas made and became the dealer in the UK, so his son could have one to race. When you start by riding good bikes, you become better than if you start with shit-heaps. If Mike had started with the Honda 500 four, he might not have lasted long before having a biggie. In any case, I think I read somewhere that when Surtees got on the 500 four, the rear suspension was down to the bump rubbers. One thing which Mike was not good at, was providing feedback to the crew. I was involved with him when he rode Dunster's Manx at Winton in the 1970s. You provided the good bike - he rode it.

acotrel said:

When Hailwood started racing, his dad bought him a Mondial. Then his dad had 1000 Hondas made and became the dealer in the UK, so his son could have one to race. When you start by riding good bikes, you become better than if you start with shit-heaps. If Mike had started with the Honda 500 four, he might not have lasted long before having a biggie. In any case, I think I read somewhere that when Surtees got on the 500 four, the rear suspension was down to the bump rubbers. One thing which Mike was not good at, was providing feedback to the crew. I was involved with him when he rode Dunster's Manx at Winton in the 1970s. You provided the good bike - he rode it.

Click to expand...

Not following you at all in you trying to rewrite history. The 500 Honda wasn't a pencil dot on the drawing board when Mike the Bike was a teenager. Stan Hailwood (Mike's father) owned and ran Kings of Oxford motorcycle empurium, who by the late 1950s sold a lot of motorcycles, including Honda.
After Mike had gained some British short circuits race experience his dad decided the time was right to enter him for the 1961 IOM TT, on a 250 Mondial, 350 Ducati desmo, 500 Manx . In the TT Stan obtained a 250 Honda four for his son, discovered the bikes tendency to over heat, so cut a T slot in the side of the fairing, Mike won, that race,then the 350 and the 500 which in that class was a Norton 1,2,3.
Google; Mike Hailwood for the love of the sport.
Mike and his mechanics.

Surtees on the four after Hailwood? In Ted Macauleys book Mike the bike he tells the story of testing the Honda & stunning the Honda mechanics by taking the shocks off the bike & throwing them in the lake. Riding round problems on a bike is very different to not being able to develop a bike! & Honda were not taking any notice of his feedback. Clearly Mike knew what he wanted as he had a set of shocks made & with him in his kit bag. He also had a frame built because he wasnt getting what he wanted from Honda.
Once again Al "I think I read somewhere" great line.

Chris said:

Surtees on the four after Hailwood? In Ted Macauleys book Mike the bike he tells the story of testing the Honda & stunning the Honda mechanics by taking the shocks off the bike & throwing them in the lake. Riding round problems on a bike is very different to not being able to develop a bike! & Honda were not taking any notice of his feedback. Clearly Mike knew what he wanted as he had a set of shocks made & with him in his kit bag. He also had a frame built because he wasnt getting what he wanted from Honda.
Once again Al "I think I misread everything and then spout it as fact to the unknowing" great line.

Click to expand...

There Chris, I've corrected your last sentence

While not a 1200 Bandit , I did own and ride a 1250 Bandit abs , other than the weight , was a lovely sporty tour bike never had any significant issues with handling or corners , certainly not standing up in corners ... actually sort of a powerful vanilla Sunday bike but still a nice ride .... also dead reliable and easy simple maintenance

Craig said:

While not a 1200 Bandit , I did own and ride a 1250 Bandit abs , other than the weight , was a lovely sporty tour bike never had any significant issues with handling or corners , certainly not standing up in corners ... actually sort of a powerful vanilla Sunday bike but still a nice ride .... also dead reliable and easy simple maintenance

Click to expand...

This is no place for vanilla.

Craig said:

While not a 1200 Bandit , I did own and ride a 1250 Bandit abs , other than the weight , was a lovely sporty tour bike never had any significant issues with handling or corners , certainly not standing up in corners ... actually sort of a powerful vanilla Sunday bike but still a nice ride .... also dead reliable and easy simple maintenance

Click to expand...

My friend with the 1200 Bandit is my age and even sillier. Most guys do not ride the way he does. The Bandit is an excellent bike. How many guys race into corners on public roads and get themselves into the shit ? I've been with him in cars - he is too fast, but very safe. When you go too hot into a corner on a bike, you end up having to brake in the middle of the corner. That is when you find out whether your bike under-steers, over-steers or stays neutral. As you brake in a corner on a neutral handling bike, you usually tend to run wider slightly faster while you are losing speed. If your judgement is good, there comes a point where you can get back on the gas and ride out of the problem. The 1200 Bandit is not neutral steering - it under-steers more as you brake in corners and becomes much harder to turn. I had to laugh when my friend bounced the Bandit off a guard rail and scared a few motorists, but he stayed on - lucky. He has got no brains - where he rides there are kangaroos, even in the middle of the day.

There is a motorcycle which interests me. It is the 7R AJS which was built by John Surtees. When you find a bike which has been developed by somebody such as Surtees, it is usually superb. I don't think Hailwood ever did that.

The kid who rides the KTM RC16 during race development, is continually copping injuries. What he does is very different to what Hailwood did.

swooshdave said:

This is no place for vanilla.

Click to expand...

Traded the Bandit in on the Ducati ST3s , vanilla is no more ....

Al
Mike ran Ducati 250 & 350 bikes & had the factory build a new frame. He also had an Ernie Earl's frame built for these engines. Strangely enough if the Honda 250 was not available he used a 57 Mondial.
Practical reason? He knew he could win!
Now interestingly he supplied John Surtees with Ducati engines & parts that John had Reynolds Ken Sprayson build frames for!
This is also 1961 ie the same time they were making the AJS 7r Reynolds Sprayson framed bike.
Not sure if you know this Al but John never raced this bike in anger. At British circuits his lap times were good enough that he said he didnt need an MV 350 to win. The quote that got the Count to ban its use.
I was wrong about Mike having a frame built for the 500 Honda Al.
He had two built! One by Colin Lyster (I had forgotten that) & the one by Ken Sprayson.
So in fact Al yes Mike did develop his bikes.
The Earl's bike did not handle how Mike wanted it to hence the Renolds frame (development) John Cooper road the Earl's framed bike & said "it was awful yet Mike won on it"
The only other riders I know of who developed fabulous bikes were Bob Mac Special framed 7r g50 that was going to be fitted with the more powerful Potts Manx engine. Again unfortunately never ridden by Bob in anger. The second was Peter William's wagon wheels Arter Matchless. Look that one up Al. Ie who made the frame why the lightweight wheels, why so much development?
Because if they had access to a faster engine they would have used it. But you will find it a good read.
As to KTM & its development it's as relevant as Lewis Hamilton is in this discussion.
Please just read up & check the facts of your posts. Before you post! It's all out there & easy to access.

Craig said:

Traded the Bandit in on the Ducati ST3s , vanilla is no more ....

Click to expand...

Went with the gelato I see?

Al KTM RC16 developement rider? The kid?

Did you mean MIkka Kallio who first rode it or Danni Pedrossa the development rider now?
Cos he only looks like a kid.

Pretty sure Al is just doing this on purpose now Chris...

Al is actually a 21 year old student. His posts on this forum are part of an art project...

acotrel said:

I was involved with him when he rode Dunster's Manx at Winton in the 1970s.

Click to expand...

Not many here could say that.

The same era he was riding the 900SS.
A pity he got bored with New Zealand, he might have lived to be elderly.

The President of the Hartwell Club, Wes Brown and his wife were socialising with Mike and his family when they were in Australia. They were heart-broken when he was killed on the motorway. We were all pretty up[set. The point I am making, is I don't think Mike went through the normal 'crash and burn' stage. The 250 Mondial was a highly developed race bike. I think it was derived out of the 175 cc Italian race class and would have crashed a lot of riders on it's way to perfection. When you start racing with something like that, you adjjust to it and learn to ride properly. Most of us start racing with converted road bikes and I think that is a mistake. The kids who seem to do best seem to come through motocross and have parents who get behind them. In Australia, we have had people such as Ron Boulden. In his case, it was his mother who helped him race. He reached the top in almost no time.
I don't believe there are many genius road racers, most times it is the bike which is excellent.

The kid who is riding the KTM RC16 is Brad Binder from South Africa. The next guy who rides it, won't have been hurt so much, so he will probably be faster.

acotrel said:

Around the back of Winton Raceway there are four tight corners. When I was racing my Triton 500, if Iowered the gearing, I was faster around there than the Z900 or H2 Kawasakis,- they used to out-gun me down the straights.. A modern sports bike would not be faster around the back of Winton than my Seeley 850. The only problem is they ride where I do not - they come down off the ripple strips as I go under them.
Monoshock makes a bigger difference when the road is bumpy.

Click to expand...

Might depend a little on who was riding the modern sports bike. Don't you think someone of Mick Dohan's caliber would give you a run for your money in a 45 minute race on a modern sports bike around the back of Winton?

Good guys are good guys. Most riders are not that good. An A-grade rider on a modern bike will beat you anywhere. An international rider will make you look stupid. The kids who race modern sports bikes are fast until you see them race against the real deal. In our Australian historic races, there are only a couple of guys who are genuinely fast. The rest are OK. Cameron Donald on McIntosh's Manx is quick in one class. But the rest is about horsepower and nerve.

acotrel said:

Southern Loop at Phillip Island does my head in....

Click to expand...

Hey wot Al? Good viz there, you should be looking through the corner. It's Siberia that does it for me - just can't get enough neck crank. Tend to focus on the apex rather than further around. Slows you down.