Best e-start for Pre-MkIII is...

Which is the best e-starter for a Pre-MkIII?

  • Total voters
    30
Matchless said:
The Norvil kit comes complete with a belt drive. Whilst I'm not overly keen on dealing with Norvil, I do think that their set up is the best system, & will prove to be the most robust. It's the same type that BMW airheads & Hardly Dangerous use, & the same system Ark Engineering have used for their T140 & A65 kits.
Whilst most of our old clunkers don't do huge mileage, on any bike that does, the sprag no matter how well made will ultimately fail.
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I have learned something whilst gathering this information. When the Norvil kit was announced I dismissed it out of hand, however looking more closely at it, it has some other pros. (1) It's super simple, so very little to go wrong (2) A broken belt can be changed in minutes, (3) The starter motor is not attached to the inner primary cover, so the weight of the motor and the shock of the starter inertia are not transmitted through the centre mount and those three poor little 1/4" screws. (4) As I mentioned already, it comes with a mainshaft outrigger bearing. So although it's the second most expensive in the UK, and the biggest job to fit, all in all I agree @Matchless, it will prove to be the best in the long term.
 
marshg246 said:
OK, did not know that the Norvil system came with a belt drive. For me, that is an absolute no! I spent 8 hours trying to get their belt drive to track and promised to never touch one again. Finally got it to track, did not charge the customer, and told them they could only bring the bike back if they agreed to have that belt drive replaced. I suppose it would have been better with two gearbox adjusters, but I wasn't about to take the bike apart to do that. The cNw belt drive simply works.

I was in the primary because the belt was not tracking and making a terrible noise - that's not what it was brought in for. I will say that for all their bad press, - Norvil replaced all the damaged parts for free including shipping. So, it was all new parts that would not track.
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I have like many on this forum had similar experiences with Norvil. A while ago I was rebuilding a MK2 850 for a friend & needed a missing ISO cradle. The only cotter version available was from Norvil, which when I checked it over was so inaccurately machined that I sent it back. In their defence I have to say they didn't quibble & could not have been more helpful, & I did wonder if they had been to charm school. The replacement was okay.
 
cliffa said:
First of all, Happy and Healthy New Year!

Ok, so I have re-read the whole thread. I was wrong, there are three members who have both Alton and CNW...

@ebyker said he would buy an Alton if he needed to buy another.
@lazyeye6 said he would buy a CNW if he needed to buy another.
@allver67 said he would buy a CNW if he only had one bike, but if doing a resto would by an Alton for it's close to stock MKIII look.

To help folks who may be looking to buy one of the offerings I have put together what I think are the pros and cons of each. The pricing is assuming the buyer is in the U.K.

Alton

Price £2136 (including UK VAT)

Pros:
Lowest price starter.
Easy to install.
Can be used with chain or belt from various suppliers.
Retains original aircleaner.
Superb support

Cons:
Drive to the engine relies on the sprague being clamped to the front sprocket or pulley.
Use of the original alternator not possible
Marginal charging in low speed situations (in my experience)
Users have reported the plastic shear pins letting go in normal operation. (extra can be added which fixes the issue).

CNW

Price £2470 ($3145) in the U.S. (As far as I'm aware there is no UK stockist, so shipping plus import duty must be factored in).

Pros:
Easy to install.
Very robust and well engineered.
Include belt drive kit.
Use of the original alternator.
Superb support.

Cons:
Use of original aircleaner not possible.
Rather bulky appearance.
Very long lead time currently.


Norvil

Price £2940 (including UK VAT, for the version without supplied battery )

Pros:
Very simple direct drive using what looks like a commonly used pre-engaged starter.
Comes with it's own mainshaft outrigger support and bearing (that is a big plus in my opinion).
Use of the original alternator.
Discreet appearance.

Cons:
No Sprague, but does it need one?
The installation is a BIG job.
Use of original aircleaner not possible.
Support - This is new to the market, so no feedback yet.

Images of each installed...

Alton
View attachment 111822

CNW
View attachment 111820

Norvil
View attachment 111821
Click to expand...
Any idea how much the cnw one would cost in the UK?
Once you've paid Vat and import duty and if it's picked up by parcelfarce the handling fee?
 
baz said:
I'm surprised by that
I think the cnw belt is narrower
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I was too. The first time I needed to install one, I called and asked because I didn't want to fight another belt drive and I wasn't going to take the job if I had to take the cradle out - too much work for too little money. Matt assured me that he never used two and that he didn't recommend two. I've installed several and have never had the slightest trouble with anything.

The clutch basket is quite a bit wider than the belt, but it is the front pully that causes it to track so it aligns however needed on the clutch.

The Norvil one that I fought was running against the inner chaincase and shredding and when I would get it to stop that, it would run against the guard on the outer of the pully and shred there. Two adjusters would have been better/easier, but even then it would still have been tough to dial it in perfectly and I have no idea how long it would last.
 
baz said:
Any idea how much the cnw one would cost in the UK?
Once you've paid Vat and import duty and if it's picked up by parcelfarce the handling fee?
Click to expand...
according to this page, import duty is 2% (that seems low to me) and then VAT is 20%, so that would bring the price up to £3013. Shipping and handling have gone through the roof since Covid so that's anybody's guess.

Commodity code 8714102000: Gear boxes and parts thereof - UK Integrated Online Tariff - GOV.UK

Gear boxes and parts thereof
www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk
 
cliffa said:
according to this page, import duty is 2% (that seems low to me) and then VAT is 20%, so that would bring the price up to £3013. Shipping and handling have gone through the roof since Covid so that's anybody's guess.

Commodity code 8714102000: Gear boxes and parts thereof - UK Integrated Online Tariff - GOV.UK

Gear boxes and parts thereof
www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk
Click to expand...
In the US, there is no duty on 8714-10-0050 or 8714-10-0090 either of which are applicable to the kit but those aren't valid in the UK. You might check if you can use 8714-10-9090 as the e-start is not a "gearbox or part thereof" or any of the other specific things listed. Not an expert, just fight with it a lot.

Besides VAT, the killer is shipping. It's a big, heavy box.

UPS, Cheapest Way, Retail would be about $680 but via a discount broker, $233
USPS, Retail would be about @220 but via a discount broker, $214

I don't know what cNw uses/charges.
 
marshg246 said:
In the US, there is no duty on 8714-10-0050 or 8714-10-0090 either of which are applicable to the kit but those aren't valid in the UK. You might check if you can use 8714-10-9090 as the e-start is not a "gearbox or part thereof" or any of the other specific things listed. Not an expert, just fight with it a lot.

Besides VAT, the killer is shipping. It's a big, heavy box.

UPS, Cheapest Way, Retail would be about $680 but via a discount broker, $233
USPS, Retail would be about @220 but via a discount broker, $214

I don't know what cNw uses/charges.
Click to expand...

I guess it has a lot to do with how badly do you want it.
 
marshg246 said:
In the US, there is no duty on 8714-10-0050 or 8714-10-0090 either of which are applicable to the kit but those aren't valid in the UK. You might check if you can use 8714-10-9090 as the e-start is not a "gearbox or part thereof" or any of the other specific things listed. Not an expert, just fight with it a lot.

Besides VAT, the killer is shipping. It's a big, heavy box.

UPS, Cheapest Way, Retail would be about $680 but via a discount broker, $233
USPS, Retail would be about @220 but via a discount broker, $214

I don't know what cNw uses/charges.
Click to expand...
I did try other descriptions, but they all came out the same....


Best e-start for Pre-MkIII is...
 
Greg’s comment “Besides VAT, the killer is shipping. It's a big, heavy box” Made me wonder what the additional weight of each is after fitment. My guess is the CNW adds the most? But it would be interesting to know.
 
cliffa said:
Greg’s comment “Besides VAT, the killer is shipping. It's a big, heavy box” Made me wonder what the additional weight of each is after fitment. My guess is the CNW adds the most? But it would be interesting to know.
Click to expand...
Because the cNw contains a belt, alloy pulleys, etc. it replaces a lot of heavy standard stuff. IIRC the net weight increase, if fitted to a stock bike, is around 10 lbs. And basically, because that’s the starter motor etc, which is located centrally I don’t believe it makes any real world difference to handling etc (I certainly couldn’t tell).

That increase can be reduced by removal of the (now not needed) kickstart and internal gubbins.
 
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cliffa said:
Greg’s comment “Besides VAT, the killer is shipping. It's a big, heavy box” Made me wonder what the additional weight of each is after fitment. My guess is the CNW adds the most? But it would be interesting to know.
Click to expand...
Since all three have a starter motor, I suspect that they more or less cancel each other. cNw and Norvil have belt drives. I know that the cNw reduces primary weight and I suspect that the Norvil one does too but the addition of the outrigger and clutch started gear probably give the edge to cNw. Pure guess, but I suspect that the Alton equipped bike weighs the most.

Next time I install a cNw starter I'll weigh what comes off and what goes on.
 
cliffa said:
No disrespect to anyone on here, but this is a rather pointless poll. As far as I can see the only valid response was from @allver67 who has experience of both. I think we all Know the pros and cons of each type. I have an Alton, but as it’s the only one I have experience of, I cannot vote to say it’s better than any of the others.
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NOT pointless, as almost everyone (maybe everyone) did research before committing to what they bought.

So, the poll is somewhat of a reduction of QUITE A BIT of research.

Definitley not pointless.
 
marshg246 said:
I was too. The first time I needed to install one, I called and asked because I didn't want to fight another belt drive and I wasn't going to take the job if I had to take the cradle out - too much work for too little money. Matt assured me that he never used two and that he didn't recommend two. I've installed several and have never had the slightest trouble with anything.

The clutch basket is quite a bit wider than the belt, but it is the front pully that causes it to track so it aligns however needed on the clutch.

The Norvil one that I fought was running against the inner chaincase and shredding and when I would get it to stop that, it would run against the guard on the outer of the pully and shred there. Two adjusters would have been better/easier, but even then it would still have been tough to dial it in perfectly and I have no idea how long it would last.
Click to expand...
This might actually have something to do with an improperly aligned isolastic system...
 
Fast Eddie said:
Because the cNw contains a belt, alloy pulleys, etc. it replaces a lot of heavy standard stuff. IIRC the net weight increase, if fitted to a stock bike, is around 10 lbs. And basically, because that’s the starter motor etc, which is located centrally I don’t believe it makes any real world difference to handling etc (I certainly couldn’t tell).

That increase can be reduced by removal of the (now not needed) kickstart and internal gubbins.
Click to expand...
Don't forget the battery weight, if it is shipped with the e-start kit...
 
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