Bennetts interview with John Russell

Nice, Half a million rent pa, and 67,000 sq ft = must be planning on building lots of new Nortons, just to pay the rent, let alone keep the lights on and pay wages.
 
Is that how much the rent is? Serious amount of money needed to invest the start up, wonder how many years it will take to become profitable?
 
Madnorton said:
Nice, Half a million rent pa, and 67,000 sq ft = must be planning on building lots of new Nortons, just to pay the rent, let alone keep the lights on and pay wages.
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Doesn’t look too excessive to me, not really larger than the neighbouring car dealers (BMW, Porsche, VW etc.) premises anyway.
As JR mentioned in the interview „Cottage Industry“ production is not likely to offer Norton Motorcycles a sustainable future
 
Canyon Motorcycles said:
Is that how much the rent is? Serious amount of money needed to invest the start up, wonder how many years it will take to become profitable?
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In the Auto. industry 8-10 years is a pretty realistic target, if the business model works. I wouldn’t expect motorcycles to be too different. TVS will be fully aware of the possible risk.
 
As much as I wish them success, a lot still does not add up. Considering that today they are in already for 40 million, plus annual running costs, the rent above plus wages, utilities etc. It needs to produce a lot of profit just to operate annually and break even, and that alone does not add up, premium exclusive massed produced bikes with a top price tag would no longer make them exclusive or premium.
They took on that building with a plan to build x amount of bikes, so how many then Norton Motorcycles? Your plan has them with a predicted margin, so again what is the retail price Norton Motorcycles? Until I see the 5 year plan in the TVS annual reports from India, I will remain unconvinced of the viable resurrection.
I also doubt that a parent like TVS will say 'it's OK if you don't break even or make a profit' they are a business and out to make money. John Russell's replacement will take over when he goes clearly will be banging his head against the bottom of cliff, one that high when looks up he will not see the top of it. Best of luck to his replacement, but last time I checked Paul Daniels had passed away.
 
Hammer750 said:
Doesn’t look too excessive to me, not really larger than the neighbouring car dealers (BMW, Porsche, VW etc.) premises anyway.
As JR mentioned in the interview „Cottage Industry“ production is not likely to offer Norton Motorcycles a sustainable future
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Rates and rent don't work like that in the UK. The buildings next door could be larger, but pay less rent and rates. It depends when they took the building on, and how it is laid out internally.
Cottage industry makes exclusive and premium, not cottage industry must mean massed produced.
Maybe you can look up the big four and you will see even their margins per bike are dire.
 
Its a hell of a mission to get everything going in itself with a open check book, to see it profitable with that kind of mega investment is hard to see. They almost need to put a Norton Sticker on there scooters and sell a shitload to make it all pay?
 
Sorry guys but I don’t really understand the reasoning behind so much negativity, are we not all Norton enthusiasts ? Have John Russell/TVS not demonstrated that they are in a different league to their many (admittedly some well intentioned) predecessors ? NONE of us will have a clear picture of their rental obligations, financial forecasting or targets. Speculation is fun but ultimately pointless. Personally I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt and support their sterling effort to keep Norton alive.
I don’t think John Bloor restarted Triumph from a garden shed, why should we expect TVS to do so.
 
Good point Hammer.

”Let’s beat up Garner because he never had the proper finances from the beginning”.
And...
”Let’s beat up TVS because they’re putting in proper amounts of finance from the beginning”.

We can’t argue it both ways guys!

ANY venture that requires new factories etc is always going to look daunting to us normal folks. Fortunately the big players, like TVS, have done it before, they know what’s involved, they know they’re playing a long game.

I think it shows a great commitment from TVS to be prepared to fund this. More power to them I say.
 
I believe JB was interviewed a couple of years ago and said that even today with 90 million today he would struggle to do what he achieved. Piaggio recently developed a new city scoot at cost of 19 million Euros, they say they will not see a return on that model but will on the spinoffs in the future that use the engine and common parts.

This is not slating, it is just an observation that there is large sums of money being invested and spent, but as yet no mention of new future models, quantity, target market etc. We know they will be premium, but that is a wide range, 20K mark or 40K mark. And yes TVS may have done this before, but they would not do it without a plan, viability, costings, projections, timescales etc, they are quite happy to say what they are currently doing but how about what the plan beyond 2021. Some potential owners won't wait if they can't see any future plan or model and will buy other brands. Considering that JR said that they had been looking for a premium brand for two years previous to picking up Norton, you would like to think that they would have outline designs and models to put with the premium brand they would pick up.

None of us here are getting any younger, and the demographic we sit in is moving right all the time to time we drop of the planet. What is their plan to encourage younger riders to the brand, if I remember rightly and it would have been the time that JR was in charge here in Europe that Harley did free direct entry training and tests for those buying a new bike. Even if they have the best plan now it will need to grow and evolve otherwise it will just be a dead end.

I'm pretty sure there must be a Journo out that there could invite JR to an interview to explain a lot more of the outline plan going forward, and I think most here would agree with that. We could start saving up.
 
Garner tried it on the cheap using stolen and/or fraudulent funds, thankfully did not get away with it.

TVS will try to do it properly with the right funds raised from legitimate sources.

Hopefully they will succeed.

But also I think its right to ask questions of the TVS approach, it's not as if certain famous brands like Aston Martin have not been bought several times and gone through several owners fortunes and are still always on the edge.
 
Madnorton said:
I believe JB was interviewed a couple of years ago and said that even today with 90 million today he would struggle to do what he achieved. Piaggio recently developed a new city scoot at cost of 19 million Euros, they say they will not see a return on that model but will on the spinoffs in the future that use the engine and common parts.

This is not slating, it is just an observation that there is large sums of money being invested and spent, but as yet no mention of new future models, quantity, target market etc. We know they will be premium, but that is a wide range, 20K mark or 40K mark. And yes TVS may have done this before, but they would not do it without a plan, viability, costings, projections, timescales etc, they are quite happy to say what they are currently doing but how about what the plan beyond 2021. Some potential owners won't wait if they can't see any future plan or model and will buy other brands. Considering that JR said that they had been looking for a premium brand for two years previous to picking up Norton, you would like to think that they would have outline designs and models to put with the premium brand they would pick up.

None of us here are getting any younger, and the demographic we sit in is moving right all the time to time we drop of the planet. What is their plan to encourage younger riders to the brand, if I remember rightly and it would have been the time that JR was in charge here in Europe that Harley did free direct entry training and tests for those buying a new bike. Even if they have the best plan now it will need to grow and evolve otherwise it will just be a dead end.

I'm pretty sure there must be a Journo out that there could invite JR to an interview to explain a lot more of the outline plan going forward, and I think most here would agree with that. We could start saving up.
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I don’t understand why you think TVS would or should go public with their business plans? Especially at this early stage.

Do other bike makers do this? Do other customers wait until they’re seen Hondas 10 year plans before buying a new Fireblade?

I understand your scepticism, but think you’re being unrealistic.
 
MxMartin said:
Assuming that they will still be refining crude for the jet and shipping markets then there will be a lot of gasoline surplus to requirements, what will happen to that?
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Put in storage by military forces around the world.
Anyone believe armed forces will go eco friendly?
 
kommando said:
Garner tried it on the cheap using stolen and/or fraudulent funds, thankfully did not get away with it.

TVS will try to do it properly with the right funds raised from legitimate sources.

Hopefully they will succeed.

But also I think its right to ask questions of the TVS approach, it's not as if certain famous brands like Aston Martin have not been bought several times and gone through several owners fortunes and are still always on the edge.
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They will succeed, but what will it look like. TVS might have a nice bank balance, but don't forget that even in our time there was a owner of the Trademark that even today makes TVS look like paupers, might be why they are still worth over $20 Billion.

Clearly it is not an early stage, by JR's words in the interview they had been looking for two years, in that time you would have thought that they had ideas so that come the day they were not two years behind the curve. Maybe the were not expecting to pick up a brand name so quickly.

We don't need to see the minute detail, just a broad plan with rough 6 month timescales. JR is his worst enemy, he mentions racing - well when and what with. Realistically, even I can see that they are at least two years away from that and realistically three. Do they go racing first or get the road bikes developed, can they both, how.

BSA was bought by a bigger outfit than TVS and despite their financial clout - nothing. Hopefully Norton will not go the same way.
 
Lots of speculation guys and that is ok by me, it’s informative and interesting in my opinion. Besides the passage of technical information (usually flowing from the few to the many (incl me) ), I see this forum as a form of entertainment. I use it when I have a technical issue sure, but also to keep up on all things modern Norton, so speculate away - let’s discuss the good and the bad, the likely, the possible and the downright improbable. Many an improbable outcome has become reality in the motorcycle game. Much as we dislike SG’s MO and despite many, many impediments (mostly self generated) he got modern Norton’s out on the road - we are riding them. That seemed pretty improbable at various stages.

Very interested though in the future of the 961, from a selfish perspective of course. Final 40 to be built and then no more. Raises lots of question for owners all over the globe.
 
They would be foolish not still make spare parts available to 961 owners. If they didn't, I would never by a new Norton again. TVS owe us nothing but if they want to bring us with them, then it would make business sense.
 
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