Bathtub combustion chambers

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SteveA said:
I suspect if bathtubs worked reasonably well on Nortons there would be more examples about by now. Mez was doing his work some years ago.

IIRC Seeley 920 has a bathtub head, and if I understood correctly 'could never really get it working properly'. Which I though meant clean carburation as much as anything else. I assume you would end up with very high compression and need specialist fuels.

Yes Steve I agree, I think special dished pistons would be required to keep the CR low, but still give nice compact combustion chamber.

Re twin plugs, I believe that the smaller and more compact the combustion chamber, the less benefit there is to be gained from twin plugs.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Or, how about 'made like that from new' bathtub Fullauto heads...?


No problem. Given enough lead time, you can order a head with completely filled combustion chambers, no plug holes and no valves/small ports. Then you can machine them up however you want. Same price as a normal Fullauto Technologies head though.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Or, how about 'made like that from new' bathtub Fullauto heads...?

Starting with a Fullauto would be the way to do it.

It could be good for a motocross or hillclimb motor but for a roadracer I think the high rpm power would be disappointing.

It could be good on a streetbike if you kept the compression ratio down. Jim
 
A bit from Wikipedia on twin plug heads. The Ford Ranger picked up about 10% extra horsepower with the change. The Ducati gained 5% in Max torque. Those are big gains.

Dual ignition promotes engine efficiency by initiating twin flame fronts, giving faster and more complete burning and thereby increasing power.[6] Although a dual ignition system is a very effective method of achieving optimum combustion and better fuel consumption, it remains rare in cars and motorcycles because of difficulties in siting the second plug. Alfa Romeo Twin Spark cars (eponymously) use dual ignition, as do Honda cars with the i-DSI series engines[7] and Chrysler'sModern Hemi engine. In 1980 Nissan installed twin sparkplugs on the Nissan NAPS-Z engine, with Ford introducing it on the 1989 Ford Ranger and 1991 Ford Mustang four-cylinder models. Several modern Mercedes-Benz engines also feature two spark plugs per cylinder, e.g. the M112 and M113 engines. Some motorcycles, such as the Honda VT500, the Honda NT400 Bros, and the BMW R1100S also employ dual ignition.[8] The 2012 Ducati Multistrada was upgraded with "twin-plug cylinder heads for smoother, more efficient combustion", the change contributing to a 5% increase in torque and a 10% improvement in fuel consumption.[9]
 
Unless a Norton head is cast such that it is more accommodating for a dual plug (hint to Fullauto :D), it becomes a bit academic. Any time you can reduce ignition advance it is a good thing as the engine does less wasted work compressing an igniting charge and as worntorn has pointed out, this also allows one to do other things to enhance the motors performance.

Regarding the OP, as for the bathtub shaped combustion chamber, this is typical (often found) in a race Norton where you are challenged to get high compression (shorter stroke engine). With a conventional 89mm (long stroke) it is not too difficult to get adequate compression with only a piston dome. This is not to say that a moderate amount of bathtub filling in the head is a bad thing for a long stroke for many of the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.

The 500 cc (59.6mm stroke) and 750cc (75mm stroke) use bathtub combustion chambers with domed pistons in order to get the desired compression ratios.
 
Sir Eddies 11,000 rpm 500 cc short stroke was bath tubbed enough to incorporate Singh Grooves he believed in like me. Singh Grooves do nothing worth while until engine operated in conditions that would detonate w/o them. Singh Grooves do not seem to help hi end power much as turbulence apparently enough by the pressure wave fast acceding piston pushes ahead of it w/o any quench-squash surfaces. Mr. Singh aimed to have all combustion surfaces blasted clean by turbulence so carbon coated areas helped guide placement and aim of the grooves. Its been found Too many grooves is counter productive so generally ony one to 3 grooves cut. On the other hand some the most powerful fastest spun hemi heads have no quench areas at all.
 
Here's the centrally domed pistons for those who are into bathtub heads. These were for a roadracer who wanted 12:1 C.R.

Bathtub combustion chambers
 
Nice looking stuff there Jim though I would have rounded the sharp edges a bit or is this a work in progress?

This was the way of Norman Wight with a dome and a re hemisphere of head to be symmetrical with the bore. He recommended a 12.6:1 compression ratio.

Better still might be piston and combustion chamber configurations like late model G50 engines or of the Ducati singles.

Thanks for sharing.
 
acotrel said:
If you were going to use dual plugs, it might be wise to use double ended coils to fire both plugs together on each cylinder, otherwise you'd never know if one plug had stopped working. Even then if you fouled a plug you'd probably have to change two.


With a dual ended coil firing two plugs in one combustion chamber, when one plug fouls, the other plug keeps firing.

So what are you trying to say?
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Nice looking stuff there Jim though I would have rounded the sharp edges a bit or is this a work in progress?

This was the way of Norman Wight with a dome and a re hemisphere of head to be symmetrical with the bore. He recommended a 12.6:1 compression ratio.

Better still might be piston and combustion chamber configurations like late model G50 engines or of the Ducati singles.

Thanks for sharing.

Also have made them 13:1 for a centally domed alky burner.
Not having any trouble with sharp edges (JE machining). I'll have some 500cc high domed short stroke pistons to show you in a couple weeks.


Bathtub combustion chambers
 
Are there any pics of these bathtubbed Commando heads.

Presumeably they could interfere with gas flow, if the ports weren't suitably done ?
 
MEZ Engineering in the UK does bathtub heads & D shaped exhaust ports for Norton heads.

Broken links removed
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mez Porting was a one man company until George died 9 years ago. His son keeps the website alive in memory of his dad.
 
Triton Thrasher said:
acotrel said:
If you were going to use dual plugs, it might be wise to use double ended coils to fire both plugs together on each cylinder, otherwise you'd never know if one plug had stopped working. Even then if you fouled a plug you'd probably have to change two.


With a dual ended coil firing two plugs in one combustion chamber, when one plug fouls, the other plug keeps firing.

So what are you trying to say?
It is not something I would ever do myself. Years ago I welded two pads above the centres of a Triumph head and used as two 10mm racing plugs (one per cylinder) set back and firing through a shaped slot between the valve seats - as was done in the 50s Gileras. It was very effective, however it was easy to foul the plugs on start-up. I used to start the motor with plugs in the normal position and swap the leads to the centre plugs after it had warmed up. It all became academic when the crack appeared in the inlet port and the guide became loose, however until then it was excellent. I used a lot more ignition advance than normal to allow for the extension to the flame distance.
 
Mez did some interesting work. I recall he succumbed to brain tumor or something like that - sad.

I wonder if anybody on the list knows the whereabouts and performance of his dual plug head(s). His bathtub combustion chambers certainly looked the part.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
I chatted with Mez years ago regarding his dual plug Commando head but he was not willing to say much about it. From the pictures one can surmise how he did it and it entails whacking out cooling fins beneath the rocker box. Furthermore, the plugs enter the combustion chamber at a wonky tangential angle rather than normal (or perpendicular) to the hemisphere. This creates what I believe is an undesirable pocket in the combustion chamber.

I kicked around an alternative better approach with Herb Becker which is marginally doable but the challenges would be plug electrode interference (even with using a very small plug) and having to place and remove plug wires with a hemostat. All machining would need to be conducted from the combustion chamber side. As much as the dual plug concept is great it would be (in my opinion) too much of a moon shot.
its funny you should say about chatting with george about the twin plug norton heads he was very secretive over them he told me he had been thinking about it for fifteen years before he started doing the first one!,he also at that time was playing around with triple plug heads on ducatis but was unhappy with the results ,i only met him twice he was full of enthusiasm he was a one man band working in a shed in his garden i still have one of his ported big valve heads its not the bathtub type though ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,baz
 
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