Another Great job by Andover Norton!
- Thread starter MexicoMike
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MexicoMike said:As the owner of AN it seems to me that instead of telling me and others that we're wrong, it would be more helpful for you to take these comments from folks and try to improve the product. And Joe, some of us here have been racing/riding/wrenching bikes longer than you have. It's not like we're idiots...
I wonder if he's ever tried to fit his own wonderfully fitting bronze fork bushings yet?
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Dave, I have had British cars/bikes since the late 60's and do/did my own wrenching on all of them. When the vehicles were in production or when original spares were still available, the replacement parts FIT. Just one tiny example: screws for an amal/SU/whatever carburetor FIT without having to force them in. All the mechanical spares I ever purchased for a Healys, ETypes, Commandos fit perfectly. Now the "factory" parts do not fit on the same model Commando that the old factory spares DID fit. The issue with parts falling off that we all joke about had/has nothing to do with them fitting correctly.
The statement that they were always that way (didn't fit well) is not correct. The original spares were fine. I realize that AN doesn't actually MAKE anything - sort of like Sears Kenmore; there is no such thing as a Kenmore factory. But if they sell the stuff, they are responsible for the quality whether they're made in China, Malaya, Vietnam, America or England. Heck, Apple doesn't seem to have any trouble getting quality products made in China. Of course, Apple has a huge customer base and a LOT of money to work with whereas there is nearly no market for old britt-bike parts by comparison. So Apple have plenty of money to throw at quality control whereas AN does not. But as was noted earlier, I would be happy to pay more for better quality.
If you are satisfied that "modern" spares should require fiddling, that's fine. But although I am perfectly capable of re-engineering the new parts in most cases, I shouldn't have to do it and I don't like being a beta tester. Further, if they were sold with the understanding that they may not be exactly right, that would be OK too I guess. But that is NOT how they are marketed. They have the original Norton part numbers and therefore are expected to fit, just as the spares from Norton back in the day were expected to (and did).
The statement that they were always that way (didn't fit well) is not correct. The original spares were fine. I realize that AN doesn't actually MAKE anything - sort of like Sears Kenmore; there is no such thing as a Kenmore factory. But if they sell the stuff, they are responsible for the quality whether they're made in China, Malaya, Vietnam, America or England. Heck, Apple doesn't seem to have any trouble getting quality products made in China. Of course, Apple has a huge customer base and a LOT of money to work with whereas there is nearly no market for old britt-bike parts by comparison. So Apple have plenty of money to throw at quality control whereas AN does not. But as was noted earlier, I would be happy to pay more for better quality.
If you are satisfied that "modern" spares should require fiddling, that's fine. But although I am perfectly capable of re-engineering the new parts in most cases, I shouldn't have to do it and I don't like being a beta tester. Further, if they were sold with the understanding that they may not be exactly right, that would be OK too I guess. But that is NOT how they are marketed. They have the original Norton part numbers and therefore are expected to fit, just as the spares from Norton back in the day were expected to (and did).
Have there been 'a lot' of quality problems on this forum ? It doesn't seem to be a major theme.
It's been some years since I rebuilt mine but the Andover frame and the rest went together perfectly. There are one or two parts where surface finish differs from original but they are fit for purpose.
I'd like AN to source cables somewhere else if they haven't already as I'm not keen on Venhill nylon after the first weeks use and I'd pay top money for tacho and speedo cables with the pressed cup tidying up the end of the armoured section.
These complaints of poor fit are difficult to judge without photos of the offending items.
My Mk111 ignition key by the way can be removed when it's switched on. Wilmot-Breeden tat ! It's only 35 years old and it's already half worn out.
It's been some years since I rebuilt mine but the Andover frame and the rest went together perfectly. There are one or two parts where surface finish differs from original but they are fit for purpose.
I'd like AN to source cables somewhere else if they haven't already as I'm not keen on Venhill nylon after the first weeks use and I'd pay top money for tacho and speedo cables with the pressed cup tidying up the end of the armoured section.
These complaints of poor fit are difficult to judge without photos of the offending items.
My Mk111 ignition key by the way can be removed when it's switched on. Wilmot-Breeden tat ! It's only 35 years old and it's already half worn out.
I appreciate Joe Siefert giving his response. He has explained how he sees AN's ability to supply decent replacement parts. Under the circumstances that is about as good as it can get.
AN is a small business and simply cannot check the quality of every product supplied. In the OEM - Tier One situation, there is TS16949 and a host of other QC processes, some pioneered by Toyota that were at the forefront of automotive quality standards and yet even those had gaps as Toyota found to their embarrassement.
QC is labour intensive and adds to retail cost. Its common practise in the after-market supply chain to rely on proven makers and distributors who consistently provide good product at good prices. One day the accountant comes in and says "The profit margin is shrinking, get the stuff from somewhere else". That decision is not informed up the supply chain to the retailer or wholesaler i.e. AN. If the consequence is a inferior part, the end-user finds out first and has to reverse the QC liability process back down the supply chain until the responsible supplier is identified and dealt with. Who's going to do that?
The reality is that from time to time, probably too frequently I find new parts do not adequately conform. Sure, not all are AN and I always request AN parts before no-name stuff. Neverthless, to avoid duplicating labour, before installing I always measure or compare as best as I can with the original part I have removed and I never throw out used parts that had proven performance or durability. Its not the way it should be but its the way it has to be. Sorry.
Having seen counterfeit OEM products, by product labels and packaging of, the one thing I can say about Oriental qualty is that they sure do a good print job!
Mick
AN is a small business and simply cannot check the quality of every product supplied. In the OEM - Tier One situation, there is TS16949 and a host of other QC processes, some pioneered by Toyota that were at the forefront of automotive quality standards and yet even those had gaps as Toyota found to their embarrassement.
QC is labour intensive and adds to retail cost. Its common practise in the after-market supply chain to rely on proven makers and distributors who consistently provide good product at good prices. One day the accountant comes in and says "The profit margin is shrinking, get the stuff from somewhere else". That decision is not informed up the supply chain to the retailer or wholesaler i.e. AN. If the consequence is a inferior part, the end-user finds out first and has to reverse the QC liability process back down the supply chain until the responsible supplier is identified and dealt with. Who's going to do that?
The reality is that from time to time, probably too frequently I find new parts do not adequately conform. Sure, not all are AN and I always request AN parts before no-name stuff. Neverthless, to avoid duplicating labour, before installing I always measure or compare as best as I can with the original part I have removed and I never throw out used parts that had proven performance or durability. Its not the way it should be but its the way it has to be. Sorry.
Having seen counterfeit OEM products, by product labels and packaging of, the one thing I can say about Oriental qualty is that they sure do a good print job!
Mick
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"and I never throw out used parts that had proven performance or durability."
I read a good quote somewhere - maybe here - about new parts: " 'NEW' stands for Never, Ever Worked." I have found that to be helpful information on many occasions when I EXPECT a new part to actually fit/operate better than an old part.
"one thing I can say about Oriental qualty is that they sure do a good print job!"
Yep, the lettering on my $35 Rolex is perfect!
I read a good quote somewhere - maybe here - about new parts: " 'NEW' stands for Never, Ever Worked." I have found that to be helpful information on many occasions when I EXPECT a new part to actually fit/operate better than an old part.
"one thing I can say about Oriental qualty is that they sure do a good print job!"
Yep, the lettering on my $35 Rolex is perfect!
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Gentlemen,
Firstly Mexico Mike:
Apologies, I really thought you had made the same mistake that a friend of mine made recently who complained about 03-0175 not working. This due to the fact he did not put it down the yoke far enough. As I have said, we get these locks from the OE suppliers to date, and I personally have had none back over the years. I have checked the ones in my stores, all are perfect but one which has a notchy spot.
If there is a problem with your particular one I am very sorry and can but offer to replace it f.o.c., if you provide your address. Your supplier knows he can return any part to Andover Norton he is not satisfied with or which is faulty, and he will either get it replaced or refunded, whatever he prefers. Can't do better than that- when we get 500 steering locks in no way can we check every single one!
As for your comment on "the way things were" in production days, my memories differ. In those pre-CNC-days many parts had variances and I remember having to mate parts from our bins, putting one to another until I found a pair that was satisfactory. Today, those OE variances cause problems as nowadays parts are more exact. So taking one instead of another from the bin gets you the same result, i.e. it will not fit the original counterpart, which was probably on the liberal side of the designed tolerance.
Secondly, Marshal:
Where man works, mistakes do occur. We are no exception to the rule. I am not, neither are my staff at Andover Norton. What we do in these cases is to either try to put the problem right, or, if this is impossible, give the customer his money back and apologize. We then put the remaining stock in quarantine until we have found a solution. I have yet to hear BP are going to take their oil back and replace the clean ocean water. I think your comment is unfair.
Mick ("ML"), however, makes a fair comment and obviously understands our situation.
Believe it or not, we ourselves do ride and love our Commandos. Only last weekend Andover Norton's Managing Director rode his private Commando from England to Bavaria, rode with us through the Alps for 3 days and 700 miles of twisty roads, and is back home now, having ridden a total of 2.300 miles in a week. The Alp group consisted of 7 Nortons (5 Commandos) and one BMW. Only defect was a broken throttle cable on my son's Commando on the first day. If our parts are so bad, how could we do it?
A friend of mine, a master toolmaker, makes a living from repairing Nortons with our parts, thus giving us constant feedback on quality, often leading to improved specifications and new developments.
I am currently building a Commando from a wreck for next season to ride as my everyday bike- using our parts, of course. And, yes, the fork bushes did fit.
As I have said in my original posting I have seen quality problems at reputable manufacturers, those with quality control departments, ISO 9001 etc, etc. We have our parts made to original drawings and specifications. Human errors happen and sometimes the odd one out causes frustration on the customer's as well as on our side. It is in our own interest to make the parts as exact as possible. Every warranty claim costs us time, money, and reputation. And it damages our pride in what we are doing- which is probably the worst aspect.
Joe
Firstly Mexico Mike:
Apologies, I really thought you had made the same mistake that a friend of mine made recently who complained about 03-0175 not working. This due to the fact he did not put it down the yoke far enough. As I have said, we get these locks from the OE suppliers to date, and I personally have had none back over the years. I have checked the ones in my stores, all are perfect but one which has a notchy spot.
If there is a problem with your particular one I am very sorry and can but offer to replace it f.o.c., if you provide your address. Your supplier knows he can return any part to Andover Norton he is not satisfied with or which is faulty, and he will either get it replaced or refunded, whatever he prefers. Can't do better than that- when we get 500 steering locks in no way can we check every single one!
As for your comment on "the way things were" in production days, my memories differ. In those pre-CNC-days many parts had variances and I remember having to mate parts from our bins, putting one to another until I found a pair that was satisfactory. Today, those OE variances cause problems as nowadays parts are more exact. So taking one instead of another from the bin gets you the same result, i.e. it will not fit the original counterpart, which was probably on the liberal side of the designed tolerance.
Secondly, Marshal:
Where man works, mistakes do occur. We are no exception to the rule. I am not, neither are my staff at Andover Norton. What we do in these cases is to either try to put the problem right, or, if this is impossible, give the customer his money back and apologize. We then put the remaining stock in quarantine until we have found a solution. I have yet to hear BP are going to take their oil back and replace the clean ocean water. I think your comment is unfair.
Mick ("ML"), however, makes a fair comment and obviously understands our situation.
Believe it or not, we ourselves do ride and love our Commandos. Only last weekend Andover Norton's Managing Director rode his private Commando from England to Bavaria, rode with us through the Alps for 3 days and 700 miles of twisty roads, and is back home now, having ridden a total of 2.300 miles in a week. The Alp group consisted of 7 Nortons (5 Commandos) and one BMW. Only defect was a broken throttle cable on my son's Commando on the first day. If our parts are so bad, how could we do it?
A friend of mine, a master toolmaker, makes a living from repairing Nortons with our parts, thus giving us constant feedback on quality, often leading to improved specifications and new developments.
I am currently building a Commando from a wreck for next season to ride as my everyday bike- using our parts, of course. And, yes, the fork bushes did fit.
As I have said in my original posting I have seen quality problems at reputable manufacturers, those with quality control departments, ISO 9001 etc, etc. We have our parts made to original drawings and specifications. Human errors happen and sometimes the odd one out causes frustration on the customer's as well as on our side. It is in our own interest to make the parts as exact as possible. Every warranty claim costs us time, money, and reputation. And it damages our pride in what we are doing- which is probably the worst aspect.
Joe
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Joe,
just jousting with you!
The only way to get offended by me is to take me seriously.
I have self appointed me to be the comic commando.
Anyway, Dave the parts fell off in the 70's because we had not learned about lock tight yet.
I had a 71 triump tiger and I was going to the Jersey shore to meet my girlfriend.
Half way there the chain guard passes me.
I didn't stop to look for it as I didn't know what exited the bike at first.
Got down to Ocean City and thought boy theres allot of chain showing bike looks naked.
Apparently front bolt and nut arrangement viberated out and off.
Back tab mount tried to keep her on there but fatigued and failed and snapped off.
When I got home I went to a bike shop in Norristown PA and Bob lent me a flashlight
so I could go down into the basement and find my own chain guard.
Sorta you pull it parts days.
I miss those days as they always fit when I got home.
Built in wear factor I guess.
The guy who invented lock tite put the British bike/car industry out of business :lol:
Marshal
just jousting with you!
The only way to get offended by me is to take me seriously.
I have self appointed me to be the comic commando.
Anyway, Dave the parts fell off in the 70's because we had not learned about lock tight yet.
I had a 71 triump tiger and I was going to the Jersey shore to meet my girlfriend.
Half way there the chain guard passes me.
I didn't stop to look for it as I didn't know what exited the bike at first.
Got down to Ocean City and thought boy theres allot of chain showing bike looks naked.
Apparently front bolt and nut arrangement viberated out and off.
Back tab mount tried to keep her on there but fatigued and failed and snapped off.
When I got home I went to a bike shop in Norristown PA and Bob lent me a flashlight
so I could go down into the basement and find my own chain guard.
Sorta you pull it parts days.
I miss those days as they always fit when I got home.
Built in wear factor I guess.
The guy who invented lock tite put the British bike/car industry out of business :lol:
Marshal
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2009
- Messages
- 591
Joe,
just jousting with you!
The only way to get offended by me is to take me seriously.
I have self appointed me to be the comic commando.
Anyway, Dave the parts fell off in the 70's because we had not learned about lock tight yet.
I had a 71 triump tiger and I was going to the Jersey shore to meet my girlfriend.
Half way there the chain guard passes me.
I didn't stop to look for it as I didn't know what exited the bike at first.
Got down to Ocean City and thought boy theres allot of chain showing bike looks naked.
Apparently front bolt and nut arrangement viberated out and off.
Back tab mount tried to keep her on there but fatigued and failed and snapped off.
When I got home I went to a bike shop in Norristown PA and Bob lent me a flashlight
so I could go down into the basement and find my own chain guard.
Sorta you pull it parts days.
I miss those days as they always fit when I got home.
Built in wear factor I guess.
The guy who invented lock tite put the British bike/car industry out of business :lol:
Marshal
just jousting with you!
The only way to get offended by me is to take me seriously.
I have self appointed me to be the comic commando.
Anyway, Dave the parts fell off in the 70's because we had not learned about lock tight yet.
I had a 71 triump tiger and I was going to the Jersey shore to meet my girlfriend.
Half way there the chain guard passes me.
I didn't stop to look for it as I didn't know what exited the bike at first.
Got down to Ocean City and thought boy theres allot of chain showing bike looks naked.
Apparently front bolt and nut arrangement viberated out and off.
Back tab mount tried to keep her on there but fatigued and failed and snapped off.
When I got home I went to a bike shop in Norristown PA and Bob lent me a flashlight
so I could go down into the basement and find my own chain guard.
Sorta you pull it parts days.
I miss those days as they always fit when I got home.
Built in wear factor I guess.
The guy who invented lock tite put the British bike/car industry out of business :lol:
Marshal
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2009
- Messages
- 591
Sorry about double posting I missed 2nd gear
Marshal
Marshal
click
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Hi Joe,
I have to agree, it's great that you are on this forum.
As they say nobody is perfect
and it's obvious to me from your replies that you do have pride in what you do.
The fact you also run Nortons is a bonus, can't get more pro-active product testing than that :lol:
I understand other members have been frustrated by AN parts, and more than likely other suppliers parts also, but I also understand your comments regarding original spec. parts which where on the generous side of the specs. Mate these up with CNC parts that are on spec & BANG you have a problem.
The trip you did sounds good fun, I'm still building my confidence up with my Norton, I plan on popping over to Wales & do 6-700miles pottering around, maybe next year I'll do a decent spin around Europe :mrgreen:
All the best
Kevin
I have to agree, it's great that you are on this forum.
As they say nobody is perfect
and it's obvious to me from your replies that you do have pride in what you do.The fact you also run Nortons is a bonus, can't get more pro-active product testing than that :lol:
I understand other members have been frustrated by AN parts, and more than likely other suppliers parts also, but I also understand your comments regarding original spec. parts which where on the generous side of the specs. Mate these up with CNC parts that are on spec & BANG you have a problem.
The trip you did sounds good fun, I'm still building my confidence up with my Norton, I plan on popping over to Wales & do 6-700miles pottering around, maybe next year I'll do a decent spin around Europe :mrgreen:
All the best
Kevin
Hi Click,
If you're coming to Wales this week, come to Anglesey over the weekend....classic racing all weekend, and lots of quick Nortons!
I agree with Joe, it's good to see him here...personally, I'v enot had any problems with AN parts, so they can't be that bad!
Don't forget, the man who never made a mistake, never made anything!!!
If you're coming to Wales this week, come to Anglesey over the weekend....classic racing all weekend, and lots of quick Nortons!
I agree with Joe, it's good to see him here...personally, I'v enot had any problems with AN parts, so they can't be that bad!
Don't forget, the man who never made a mistake, never made anything!!!
Hortons Norton
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I feel for Joe as most times businesses only hear from people when things go wrong, Rightly so I guess. Well guys I must be lucky or something, When I started work on my 75 MkIII I bought most all of my parts from suppliers that sold A.N. original parts. But along the way I also bought from e-bay and in my experience I have found that the aftermarket stuff is total crap, And the original stuff to be very good. I have bought 2 tail light fairings and guess what? The one off e-bay would have never fit without buying a new fender without holes, And then re-drilling it to fit. So I purchased a Norton part and it fit first try. I cannot remember having any problems with A.N.'s parts. Then I started work on a 72 and purchased tons of more stuff that was also A.N. always have had good results with them. I feel for the guys that have had problems and know how it feels as I also went through this kind of thing, Just not with A.N. stuff. This is a picture of some of the cards that come with parts. I wish I had starting keeping them from the start as there would be at least twice this many, Maybe more. Have a great day and ride safe, Chuck.
Hortons Norton
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But I do have a rookie Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. Not worth much now, Damn Steroids!!!!!!! LOL. My card collection could have bought a Norton or two at one time. :roll:
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What I liked most about English motorcycles was that each was hand made, from welding to the fitment of parts that required lapping, filing or a light sanding. The Japanese bikes of the time had welds that looked like a chicken was doing the work, they had precise tolerances the replacement parts, ugly as they were, fit perfectly, these machine had (have) no soul.
When I fit a part to my Commando I reflect and ask my self, what would Geoff or Mick have done back in the glory days of Norton production to make this part do its job? The tolerances built into manufacturing in the '60s and '70s have the ability to multiply. I have had to lap fork bushes, I have had to de-burr countless parts while shaving a tad here and a tad there I have not yet seen a header pipe that didn't need tweaking; I enjoy the peace of mind that comes from knowing that all my parts fit and function as designed---finally. The original Norton designs date to the days when Blacksmiths could be found in every town or hamlet; the blacksmith solved all his issues with a hammer...When I work on my Norton I tend to think of myself as a "specialist" not a "technician".
I am amazed at how many parts sources exist for Norton, I have had a few frustrating experiences with AN parts, but not as many as with my former 740 Volvo. I wish AN all the best and 'am glad that Joe is comitted to supporting Norton; every part has its own personality, if you listen carefully each will tell you how it wants to be fitted...
RS
When I fit a part to my Commando I reflect and ask my self, what would Geoff or Mick have done back in the glory days of Norton production to make this part do its job? The tolerances built into manufacturing in the '60s and '70s have the ability to multiply. I have had to lap fork bushes, I have had to de-burr countless parts while shaving a tad here and a tad there I have not yet seen a header pipe that didn't need tweaking; I enjoy the peace of mind that comes from knowing that all my parts fit and function as designed---finally. The original Norton designs date to the days when Blacksmiths could be found in every town or hamlet; the blacksmith solved all his issues with a hammer...When I work on my Norton I tend to think of myself as a "specialist" not a "technician".
I am amazed at how many parts sources exist for Norton, I have had a few frustrating experiences with AN parts, but not as many as with my former 740 Volvo. I wish AN all the best and 'am glad that Joe is comitted to supporting Norton; every part has its own personality, if you listen carefully each will tell you how it wants to be fitted...
RS
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RoadS,
Nicely stated. Maybe I should have found a blacksmith. They are around here in Mexico!
Nicely stated. Maybe I should have found a blacksmith. They are around here in Mexico!
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