AMR Wetsumping Mod Installation Video

Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
793
Country flag
But wait there's more...

Sometime in the late 1980's I installed a ball bearing and spring like what AMR does. I think many people did. No machining or addition of seals was done for the install. Ball bearing sat against the oil pump outlet. I removed the ball bearing and light spring after 6800 miles, and installed the manual ball valve. I'm not sure who I got the ball bearing kit from. Norton owners had to put the spring, ball bearing, and pin in before installing the cover and pulling the pin out. It didn't prevent wet sump. It did slow it down some. Sounds like the AMR mod is similar in that regard.

I won't be installing a spring and ball bearing again even with the improved AMR machine work and seals, which looks like a good deal. I don't care what anyone uses. No dog in this fight. I know what works for me though. It's just one more valve that needs to be turned On or Off on a funky old motorcycle. 2 fuel petcocks and 1 oil petcock. Easy peasy.

Below is the spring, ball bearing, and pin. Being the pack rat that I am, I knew I'd held onto the pin for decades. Had to go out and find it. Done. lol

The ball bearing and spring were in the timing cover from 1980 something, until 2020 something.
247P7530s.jpg


Pin has been in my Norton only toolbox from 1980 something and will be until I sell my Norton, or my wife throws all my stuff in the trash, or gives it away.
IMG_6102s.JPG
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
516
Country flag
@swooshdave my guess is he didn't.

Looking back, I have seen this sales style as a reoccurring theme across several other posts - he hijacks an otherwise excellent post in order to sell something of his usually slating other comments and solutions along the way.

I find it a huge shame - he is a great engineer that we all respect, but his poor etiquette is a real let down. :(
I know about JS contribution to the Norton community.
What is yours ?
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
2,602
Country flag
I've heard of too many Nortons blowing up because of anti sump devices that have shut off the flow. I'm not saying that the AMR can do this and I hope it works just fine, but I know for sure that other types have caused disaster - especially the ones where you have to turn on to allow oil flow and there have been some reports on this forum about spring loaded valve problems (sticking shut).

So I'm posting a new thread "cheap and easy solution to wet sumping problem".. It should prevent blowing out (inverting) the main oil seal lip. I'm not worried about other smaller seals in the motor - sure they will wear out and leak but I have never seen one invert or completely blow out. Over filling the tank and sump to the point that it won't kick over is operator error and if you're going to do that then you could just as well forget to put oil in the bike. So check out the new post - if you want me to comment/respond then please see the new thread "cheap and easy solution to wet sumping problem".

Note that there is no motivation for me to share this info other than to help Norton owners find a way to solve the wet sumping problem without spending any money (maybe a few cents at your local oring supplier).
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
11,397
Country flag
I've heard of too many Nortons blowing up because of anti sump devices that have shut off the flow. I'm not saying that the AMR can do this and I hope it works just fine, but I know for sure that other types have caused disaster - especially the ones where you have to turn on to allow oil flow and there have been some reports on this forum about spring loaded valve problems (sticking shut).

So I'm posting a new thread "cheap and easy solution to wet sumping problem".. It should prevent blowing out (inverting) the main oil seal lip. I'm not worried about other smaller seals in the motor - sure they will wear out and leak but I have never seen one invert or completely blow out. Over filling the tank and sump to the point that it won't kick over is operator error and if you're going to do that then you could just as well forget to put oil in the bike. So check out the new post - if you want me to comment/respond then please see the new thread "cheap and easy solution to wet sumping problem".

Note that there is no motivation for me to share this info other than to help Norton owners find a way to solve the wet sumping problem without spending any money (maybe a few cents at your local oring supplier).
Except we know why those other devices failed. Either because someone forgot to turn the handle (as mentioned these days we have interlocks to prevent this) or in the case of inline ball valves the rely on suction to displace. One of the reasons to bring up this modification is for people to look for weaknesses. As always we get sidetracked. :p
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
793
Country flag
Did I mention I forgot to turn the manual ball valve on? It was actually the first time I started the motor after installing it. Super Smart

Point is, hell yes you can forget!!

Ran for about 5 seconds with it off. Turned it on, and oil pressure went right up to a normal cold value of 60psi. I run STP oil treatment in it now. he he

I don't forget anymore. It scared the crap out of me. It's the first thing I do when I walk into the garage with the intent on starting the Norton up. Gonna go do that right now.

Great video Dave. Stay frosty.
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
11,397
Country flag
Did I mention I forgot to turn the manual ball valve on? It was actually the first time I started the motor after installing it. Super Smart

Point is, hell yes you can forget!!

Ran for about 5 seconds with it off. Turned it on, and oil pressure went right up to a normal cold value of 60psi. I run STP oil treatment in it now. he he

I don't forget anymore. It scared the crap out of me. It's the first thing I do when I walk into the garage with the intent on starting the Norton up. Gonna go do that right now.

Great video Dave. Stay frosty.
Switches are readily available to make it nearly user proof. Never to late to put one on.
 

baz

VIP MEMBER
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
3,231
Country flag
I made that mistake many years ago on my mk2a
I had an inline oil tap and I'd forgotten to turn it on
I got approximately 7 miles before it started to rattle
I reached down as quickly as I could and tuned the oil on
I can remember waiting at the side of the road with the motor running,it quietened down and I carried on to work
Luckily I caught it before any damage was done
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
793
Country flag
Switches are readily available to make it nearly user proof. Never to late to put one on.
I've seen those. It would have to be idiot proof in my case. The premade switched solutions I've seen are over priced, and I really won't ever forget about the valve again until dementia takes over and I can't remember where my garage is. Opening the ball valve is ingrained in my subconscious somewhere currently. As strange as it sounds, I actually look forward to opening it. It signals a ride is eminent.
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
1,294
Country flag
Three Commando's on the road with the AMR mods. One of them was done before he started doing the OPRV mod and it will drain the tank about half way in a month or so. The other two don't at all. So have all three mods done for best success. No other issues. All three bikes have the Mikes XS reed valve. My rule of thumb is if the screen is covered by oil I start the bike. Always fills the tank back up in about 30 seconds or so. No inverted main seal issues.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
21
Country flag
I did the amr style mod years ago as well as the mod to the pump.It does slow it down but if I drive it once a week it is not a problem. I have the 750 with the large drain plug.I use the after market plug that walridge motors sells with the smaller bolt in the middle so I don't have to remove the main large one all the time from the crankcase.If it is going to sit for a few weeks I just put a clean plastic jug on its side wit a 1" hole in it and a small funnel.I just leave the plug out and let it slowly collect.The funnel almost touches the large plug and stays clean.Then when I want to go riding I just put the small plug back in and dump the jug back into the oil tank.Sometimes there is a small amount,sometimes a quart. It is just a simple solution if you only drive it once in a while.
 

fiatfan

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
437
Country flag
Why not just remove the timing discs from the camshaft end making it free flowing, and fit a reed valve in the pipe. The holes in the camshaft are a greater surface area than the reed valves smallest hole, so that is still the constriction not the untimed camshaft breather. No need to drill a new hole or block off the old one, just need to split the cases to removed the timing discs.
This was about wetsumping, I didn´t mention that I have a -73 850 so no discs on the cam shaft end. I was just wondering if that mod alone would make any sense without doing the rest of the stuff Dave had done to the oil pump and timing cover.
 

Fast Eddie

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Oct 4, 2013
Messages
15,742
Country flag
Did I mention I forgot to turn the manual ball valve on? It was actually the first time I started the motor after installing it. Super Smart

Point is, hell yes you can forget!!

Ran for about 5 seconds with it off. Turned it on, and oil pressure went right up to a normal cold value of 60psi. I run STP oil treatment in it now. he he

I don't forget anymore. It scared the crap out of me. It's the first thing I do when I walk into the garage with the intent on starting the Norton up. Gonna go do that right now.

Great video Dave. Stay frosty.

Its SO easy to forget !

Folk often compare an in line oil valve to a petrol tap ’its just another tap’ etc.

But there is no comparison in my mind, forget to turn the petrol on and it either won’t start, or will cut out in short time. Forget to turn the oil on and you can wreck the engine.

I‘m not saying that YOU shouldn’t have one, if it works for you then that’s cool. Its your bike and it’s your risk, it’s nowt to do with me.

But I know that I could never trust myself to have one !
 

mdt-son

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
1,182
Country flag
Hi all! Can we please discuss technical topics without starting a flaming war of beliefs and opinions? Why someone who have fitted a suction line valve should feel the need to defend himself just because we are discussing the AMR modification is beyond my comprehension. Each solution has its merits and downsides. If someone thinks he can rely on memory or electrics turning/switching the oil supply on despite stories of havoc, that's fine. He will only have to blame himself if havoc happens. On the other hand, the AMR solution appears not to be perfect either, and those declining to use this solution for this or other reasons should be respected too.
If you are running your bike frequently (i.e., several times a week), with or without a breather, you do not need to opinionate your absence of a wet-sumping problem, as this goes without saying.
Draining the oil tank for lay-ups does prevent wet-sumping effectively, no question. However, it's messy and there is a risk of contamination as the oil poured back will not be filtered before entering the engine. Of course, you have to remember checking the oil level first, or put a warning sign on the seat. Up- and downsides again ....

Let's be tolerant and open-minded, gents!

Thank you Jim, for highlighting a potential problem with the PTO shaft seal. I am curious to read about your findings.

-Knut
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
542
Country flag
Not really a side track to the thread, more of a small detour....
What's the Informed Opinion about what to do when the motor has wet-sumped enough to expose the gauze inlet filter? I have a reed valve installed on the crankcase (my own version, I'm not really happy with the detail, but it works), and in the same way as the JS & JC valves, it will clear the flooded sump in a few seconds.

JS, you seem to think that there's no harm in starting the engine, even though the oil pump will be sucking air for a short while, am I correct?
It's always good to hear from the blokes who have knowledge of this, rather than the theorising that I tend to do...
 
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
2,252
Country flag
I did the amr style mod years ago as well as the mod to the pump.It does slow it down but if I drive it once a week it is not a problem. I have the 750 with the large drain plug.I use the after market plug that walridge motors sells with the smaller bolt in the middle so I don't have to remove the main large one all the time from the crankcase.If it is going to sit for a few weeks I just put a clean plastic jug on its side wit a 1" hole in it and a small funnel.I just leave the plug out and let it slowly collect.The funnel almost touches the large plug and stays clean.Then when I want to go riding I just put the small plug back in and dump the jug back into the oil tank.Sometimes there is a small amount,sometimes a quart. It is just a simple solution if you only drive it once in a while.
I have the same plug. Great Idea.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
793
Country flag
Its SO easy to forget !

Folk often compare an in line oil valve to a petrol tap ’its just another tap’ etc.

But there is no comparison in my mind, forget to turn the petrol on and it either won’t start, or will cut out in short time. Forget to turn the oil on and you can wreck the engine.

I‘m not saying that YOU shouldn’t have one, if it works for you then that’s cool. Its your bike and it’s your risk, it’s nowt to do with me.

But I know that I could never trust myself to have one !
I'm OK with the ball valve now. At first it was easy to forget. I caught myself pre-start kicking it over a couple more times with the valve closed. Currently opening the valve is the first thing I do when I go into the garage with intent to start it. Then I busy myself with getting ready for about 15-20 minutes before I get into the startup routine

It is a little different for me. I don't have a garage full of bikes anymore, so I don't get as distracted as I did when I was younger. I would never suggest anyone use a manual ball valve without a ignition shut off switch. I probably wouldn't suggest ball valve at all, because they aren't very attractive additions to a Norton. Plus Norton owners I've run across out and about when I'm on a ride like to point at it and say, "Don't forget to open that". One needs to be able to handle the ridicule as well as the risk.

The one time I started the motor with the ball valve shut off was the same day I also installed the FCRs. I got little kid excited to fire it up, and forgot the valve was there. I wanted to get that motor fired up. 5 seconds with the valve closed didn't blow up the motor, but it seemed like an eternity without oil at the pump after the fact.
 
Joined
May 7, 2005
Messages
5,370
Country flag
I´m thinking of doing the mod on the PRV, drilling a new hole and blocking the old hole in the casing. Is there any downside of that modification alone?
Hopefully I will get it right this time, you can do this mod on its own, the oil then follows the same route as on the pre Commando twins and they only had this one difference from an unmodified pre MK3 Commando. But you must do the blocking of the oilway in the crankcase and the timing cover drilling in one go and mark the engine for the next owner in case he thinks the oilway needs reopening.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
2,602
Country flag
...JS, you seem to think that there's no harm in starting the engine, even though the oil pump will be sucking air for a short while, am I correct?...

Every motor starts without oil psi for a few seconds. The less time the better. But when the gauze is showing in a Norton oil tank there is still some oil in the oil pump (because it is lower) to give a shot into your crank and rockers. And don't forget that if your sump is flooded then your journals have probably been immersed in oil and when it starts the journals will dip into the oil each revolution. Then after a few seconds some oil is pumped into the oil tank and the gause is covered. So as long as their is oil on the journals you are OK and there is no damage to the journals. There would probably be more damage if your sump was completely dry and the journals were lacking oil a few seconds until the oil psi built up.
 
Last edited:

fiatfan

VIP MEMBER
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
437
Country flag
Hopefully I will get it right this time, you can do this mod on its own, the oil then follows the same route as on the pre Commando twins and they only had this one difference from an unmodified pre MK3 Commando. But you must do the blocking of the oilway in the crankcase and the timing cover drilling in one go and mark the engine for the next owner in case he thinks the oilway needs reopening.
Good idea to note it somehow so the next owner is aware, didn´t think of that. I have to put together a leaflet or something because I´ve also put a JS radius cam with lifters in there, that also feels like pretty important info. Will write down info on the RGM belt drive and some other stuff will be noted as well.
 
Top