Alton Electric Start

Here's my experience with exactly what you are concerned about:

Last weekend I did a voltage check at 1500 RPM immediately after startup (Alton E-start alternator, Podtronics regulator, Shorai 18AH battery, Tri-Spark). With the headlight OFF, the battery voltage was 13.48. With the headlight ON it was 13.14. I have no other electrical equipment on the bike. The same battery has been in the bike for 4 years now. Prior to installing the Alton, I had the 180W Lucas alternator/OEM rectifier/Zeners. I had the same concern as you re power output but it has not been an issue at all. Obviously the general condition of the wiring/connections, etc could have an effect on this.

Re the Alton/CNW starter. When I purchased the Alton, the CNW did not exist. My Commando was (is) a one-kick starter but the ability to instantly start when in traffic/congestion was the primary reason I wanted an Estart. So I went with the Alton. After they revised the alternator rotor, it has been superb. Since then the CNW starter became available. I am totally confident that the CNW unit is a superior design. However, the fact that it will not allow use of the standard airbox means that even today, if I was buying a new EStart, I would buy the Alton. But that, of course, is a personal "appearance" issue. I prefer the Alton's "look" on the bike; being less noticeable than the CNW. Again, I am sure that the CNW is more robust and a better design overall as far as a "starting system" is concerned. Whether the better design/robustness matters in routine operation...I don't know.

I exchanged emails with Paul at Alton a few days ago re the revised drive gear that replaced the original type, which I have on my starter. Based on our conversation, I determined there was no need to replace my "old style" gear with the new one. Basically, the new gear allows for easier replacement in the event the gear is damaged. With the original, the entire gear had to be replaced, with the new one, the nylon "pins" are replaced which is a much easier operation. Since I have never had an issue with backfires that could potentially cause such a failure, I don't consider it worth bothering with changing to the newer design. Obviously, if you buy a new Alton, it will come with the newer gear. FWIW when I had trouble with two "exploding rotors" shortly after installation, Alton's customer support was superb. They sent me replacements immediately from France to Mexico at no charge, covering shipping/customs as well. The second replacement rotor was the new (and still current) design.

OTOH, you cannot go wrong with the CNW starter...simply because it's CNW; If I had to put money on which starter would last with no issues for daily use over the next 20 years, I would put my money on the CNW. Will the Alton do that? Well, I guess I'll know the answer in 20 years.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

Thanks MexicoMike, yes you've got my concerns exactly, even down to one I didn't think to mention – given that I spend a lot of time riding in urban areas, I'm always afraid of the bike stalling! Being shorter in the leg than whoever the bike was designed for, I virtually cannot start the bike other than on the centre stand, so in the event of an urban stall, a push to the side of the road would be the likely scenario. This last happened to me (on a previous Commando) in 1982 (I wonder where she is now – not the bike, the girl who was on the back!), but, apart from keeping the carb/ignition state good, the main reason it hasn't happened since is because I keep a vice-like grip on the throttle when stationary! I would enjoy my rides *so* much more with a reliable electric foot.

Your 'headlight ON' test sounds healthy enough. And my feeling is you're spot on about robustness. I suppose I can always put what I have back if I got an electric start kit that disappointed – but then I'd have to be able to afford it first! Anyone wishing to send donations, PM me. :lol:

The Alton starter is 2 brush not 4 brush, missed opportunity for a better starter for not much more to Alton.

Noted, thanks.

kommando said:

The Alton starter is 2 brush not 4 brush, missed opportunity for a better starter for not much more to Alton.

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I don't think 4 brush vs 2 matters in this case. The Alton starter seriously spins the 850 motor with no effort at all.

Its a £1400 kit so not cheap, Alton could have fitted a 4 brush for extra safety margin for a few € or so to them.

It's a bit more than £1,400 ... From AN anyway. https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/16999

What is the "safety margin" you are referring to? A 4 brush motor is not "better" than a 2 brush motor if a 4 brush motor is not needed for the application. With the gear reduction in the Alton system, a 4 brush motor won't do anything "better". It's not like the OEM Norton MkIII starter which WAS marginal in the application due to the less than optimum gear ratio reduction. OTOH, I have a friend with an OEM MKIII and his OEM starter works fine with no issues at all once he replaced the OEM cables with heavier gauge cables. In his view the issue wasn't really the 2 brush starter, it was the wiring.

The standard chains supplied are, in my opinion not good enough.

I have supplied several "big pin" chains for this application.

However I have just seen the picture of the sprocket and I am not surprised the chains
are wearing. If they are using a 10 tooth sprocket this will create a large amount of
polyginal. I wont go into boring details, google it. It is one of the reasons manufacturers
stop using 630 chain back in the day.

Andy

PS I offered my chain to Alton at Stafford some years back, even gave them a freeby.
Heard zip so even if they asked for help...........

Dear Access Norton forum members,

My name is Jack Manning and I am co-owner of the Classic Bike Experience in Vermont, USA. 80% of our business has been with Commandos over the years. As some of you know, we do both commercial projects and also allow customers (aka The Classic Bike Guild Members) to do work on their machines in our shop. So, we get a lot of exposure to bikes and owners.

My partner Nick and I hail from the ranks of aerospace engineering and manufacturing, and so carry a discerning eye and ear when it comes to our business, products and general support of the vintage British bike community. We are pretty good at sorting out facts, conjecture and hearsay, which we tend to get in equal amounts on any given day. We are proud of what we know and equally proud of drawing the line when we don't know. We don't advertise much, but enthusiasts seem to find us and tell us our reputation is sound. To date we have not monitored forums and don't invest much time in things like Facebook. And, well, Nick still uses a flip phone. You get the idea.

In 2012, we became a retail sales and service partner for Alton for the US. Since that time we have sold upwards of 100 units with very good success and enjoyed a terrific relationship with Paul and the Alton team. We pride ourselves on providing exceptional installation (either on site or remote) and aftermarket technical support. In turn, we have been supported very well by Alton. Our warranty claims have been very minimal (I tell customers I keep all my warranty spares in a shoe box...and can't remember the last time I opened it) but, like you all have mentioned on this forum, we keep a stock of shear pins handy. Once a bike is sorted, however, that seems to be it.

So, as an extension of that support, I have offered to monitor this and other forums to help out where there are technical issues in general and any service or warranty issues on this side of the pond with Alton products as we carry the generators as well. You are welcome to connect with me on this forum if you think it will benefit the Norton community or, if you have a specific issue related to just your bike, it might be best to contact us directly through our contact page on the website or give us a call.

For you forum grey beards, if I need to post this someplace else on the site, please let me know. This string seemed like the logical first step.

Thanks and regards,

Jack (& Nick)
Owners
The Classic Bike Experience LLC
Essex, VT USA
www.classsicbikeexperience.com
+1 802-878-5383

classicbikevt said:

Dear Access Norton forum members,

My name is Jack Manning ...my partner Nick ...

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Jack (and Nick) thank you for joining the forum, and checking in here to advise us regarding your position in this market.

I am sure many other forum members thank you as well, and will be contacting you in future.

classicbikevt said:

Thanks and regards,

Jack (& Nick)
Owners
The Classic Bike Experience LLC
Essex, VT USA
http://www.classsicbikeexperience.com
+1 802-878-5383

Click to expand...

Just trying to be helpful – there's one too many 's's in that URL – should be http://www.classicbikeexperience.com

NortonMKIIA850 said:

classicbikevt said:

Thanks and regards,

Jack (& Nick)
Owners
The Classic Bike Experience LLC
Essex, VT USA
http://www.classsicbikeexperience.com
+1 802-878-5383

Click to expand...

Just trying to be helpful – there's one too many 's's in that URL – should be http://www.classicbikeexperience.com

Click to expand...

It's attention to detail when you fit Alton starters.

Jack ,you have been an Alton dealer for a fair while, perhaps you could explain the evolution of the Alton starter, in particular the protection device and the reason for its present configuration?

Jg

Hey Jack and Nick

now over four years since I bought my Alton from you for my 73 850, it has been absolutely perfect every start, thank you guys!

JG, I know you didn't address that question to me but I had an email discussion with Paul (at Alton) a week or two ago. He said that the change was made to the drive gear because the original gear, which had the same capability, was too costly to replace if there was a serious backfire that caused the gear to shear so they went with the current system with the replaceable nylon rods.

I have had the Alton since '12 and have never had any issue with the gear. Paul said he would send me the new version if I wanted it but that there was no need to do that because the new gear doesn't do the job "better." The old one protects the system equally well but the new one is cheaper to produce AND easily repairable in case of a catastrophic backfire that shears the gear coupling. The old gear had to be completely replaced; the new one only needs the nylons replaced. I think the new one IS a better design in that regard- easier/cheaper/quicker to fix.

Sure, although limited to our direct experience and some background I have gotten from Paul.
Alton's use of a sprag allows for a compact design that is very subtle and I believe that was an important design consideration for them to allow the unit to be used with all stock Commando parts (he and his brother Herve' developed the device).
In turn, they felt the need for a torque limiter/shock absorber to protect the unit in case of backfire and to smooth out and "quiet" the starting sequence.
Early units had the hexagonal resin as part of the "double gear". Worked well, but not easily repairable and somewhat expensive in production quantities. They then moved to the shear plug configuration and used their own home brew of polymers and experimented with the number of plugs to use, finally settling on 3 (even though there are 6 slots). This was in 2012 or so and it was about this time we became a distributor for them.
They, and we, noticed that we could procure industrial grade rods with varying mechanical durometer properties. As the home brew rods they were producing had variations (things like bubbles) we quickly agreed to standardize on industrial rods, which they did in 2016.
As for the number of plugs, three typically works, but we have recommended owners with higher compression motors to use additional plugs and have not seen any issues. But the standard is 3 and with the more consistent (and slightly higher durometer rating) that seems to be working fine.
If anyone out there is still having issues with plugs on the US side, give us a buzz and we can work with you on getting things sorted.
As an aside, the MKIII sprag was a weak link in that design, but sprag technology is mature and we have seen no issues with the Alton sprag in our 5 years working with the product.
Hope that covers the subject adequately.
Jack

Jack
With a belt drive, where the sprag is running dry, have you found any need to periodically lubricate it?
David

classicbikevt said:

review

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Jack , when I requested the evolution of the shock absorbers to shear pins, as you have been selling them since 2012 and have had very little bother and a great relationship with Alton I did expect more detailed information. All Alton starters have serial numbers and I presumed that the change over would have been detailed at a particular number. Also the reason for the change as given by Alton is in contradiction to information I received from my liar , sorry supplier, that Alton had apparently given to him in May 2013 when I received my new shock device which did not contain any " home brewed pins".

I appreciate the time you have taken to reply to my request but there are quite a few Alton starters that have "chucked it" out there , including mine at a cost of £1400 plus fitting(thought it might be wise to get the dealer to fit it , just in case, you never know what might happen warranty wise etc).

I am well aware what a shear bolt is ,and the importance of having one, so why won't Alton admit their initial starters were really not up to the job on engines with a bit of compression. 1up 3 down loves his but says he would have bought from CNW had they been available, because of their impeccable after sales service. Unfortunately Altons after sales is poor ,communication and paperwork is dire(shoebox method I'll bet).My repair took over 8 weeks and plenty phone calls unanswered to my dealer and when I emailed Beverly ,she couldn't care less. Anyway you be carefull out there, and have a good day. Jg

Jack

If I can help you I will.

The chains with the starter are, in my opinion not good enough.

Go to local Audi agent and ask to see pt 079.109.229. a chain from a n Audi V8 5V.

It has a pin dia of 4.41 instead of 3.31 and is a bush chain so no rollers to fail.

I supply this to Comstock in USA for cam chains. If you need any help with any chains
I can supply with 99 links for Commandos with 21 tooth front sprocket or indeed any length.

I am also supplying a duplex to replace the triplex primary as used by Laverdas worldwide. Most
triplex made now is of budget quality.

I still do not like the low number of teeth in the Alton drive as polyginal is a killer for chain
but
what the hell.

Andy

Dear all,
As noted previously I will be monitoring forums intermittently so it may be a few days between responses. And, in some cases, best for me to check with Paul first on certain responses.

David: Regarding lubrication of the sprag, recall that it is an overrunning device that really only engages during starting. The rest of the time it is meant to be in the static position. Ergo, not really a mechanism that needs regular lubrication for wear and/or cooling. Alton estimates that 30 to 40% of installations either start or end up with belt drives, so there is a pretty large sample size without "lubrication" failures to support that assessment and therefore no planned maintenance. There is an additional population of Velocette starters using similar device. As a side note, it is important to have the proper spacer installed for the belt drive in question as it affects alignment and put asymmetrical loading on the device. This is noted in the back of the installation manual.

Audblue: I can only take what you are telling me at face value. If you worked through a dealer or distributor and are not happy, please contact Paul directly if you have not done so already. He was not able to identify you or your kit from the information on the forum. I can't tell if you are on this side of the Atlantic, but if so I'm happy to support you as well if you are here in North America.

Jack