AJS 33: how many built?

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Hi Knut.
If i look at pictures:

http://www.eurooldtimers.com/eng/galerie-stroj/3489-1965-ajs-33-csr-750-ccm.html

i can see that this bike is like mine: the front 33 mudguard has not the Y stays like my G15 but the simple bridge; same pictures showed the long chromed grab rear fender support.
What i have not understood?.
The only issue seems to me that my bike has the original 33 wear (like in the pictures) but has the engine stamped CSR.
The previous second owner said he bought it in the last of 70th and had never changed parts.
Front mudguard: The bike shows a chromed standard mudguard as used on the M33 /P and /home models, identical to all the the roadster models, with exception of the G12CSR. I've never seen this item chromed before. It's likely a one off. Maybe a former owner chose it because obtaining a replacement for the wider mudguard was and is difficult.

Rear mudguard: This is evidently one off a G12CSR, or a repro made to the same pattern. As mentioned above, the genuine G15 /M33 mudguard was susceptible to cracking.

-Knut
 
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Front mudguard: The bike shows a chromed standard mudguard as used on the M33 /P and /home models, identical to all the the roadster models, with exception of the G12CSR. I've never seen this item chromed before. It's likely a one off. Maybe a former owner chose it because obtaining a replacement for the wider mudguard was and is difficult.

Rear mudguard: This is evidently one off a G12CSR, or a repro made to the same pattern. As mentioned above, the genuine G15 /M33 mudguard was susceptible to cracking.

-Knut
 
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Don't be fooled. The pictured bike is definitely not genuine.

-Knut

Errata: While the bike pictured has been restored, it is correctly spec'ed according to the sales literature. For 1965-67, the model 33 was listed having the narrow 3.25 tires up front. This configuration doesn't require the wide mudguard needed for the 3.50 tire. Hence, a chrome-plated version of 030101 (usually black) was specified.
 
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Don't be fooled. The pictured bike is definitely not genuine.

-Knut
Hi Knut.
If you look the picture in pag. 67 of Roy Bacon book you can see that the front fender has the standard bridge, not the Y brackets like G15 MK2 and has the short rear grabs.
Picturs pag. 83 (no grabs) and 191 has the Y brackets.
A nightmare!
Thank you
Piero
 
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I think I've found the aswer. We know the AJS models 33 and 33 CSR were badge engineered versions of the corresonding Matchless G15P and G15CSR models.

For 1964-65, the G15P was sold in different markets. The UK version had the 3.25x18" tire and the narrow mudguard (030101). The export version (for USA presumably) received fatter 3.50x18 tires and the wider mudguard (030060). It seems this was a design exercise only to meet the american taste for fat tyres inspired by HD.

In the 1965-67 brochures for the AJS model 33 and the Matchless G15, standard fitment for the UK version still was a 3.25x18in front tyre. Likely the same WM3x18 rim was specified as on the export only G15 - NM23319 (**), and the narrow and chrome plated mudguard was fitted. For the export (US) version of the G15, a 3.50x18 front wheel and corresponding wide mudguard was specified as before. At this time the G15P was renamed G15.

For 1966-68, after the N-V take-over, the UK and US export versions continued much like before, except for a new paint scheme, Concentric carbs and points ignition. In the parts book (clearly destined for the US - there are no prices), only the US-spec'ed G15 Mk2 is listed. The absence of the UK specific version is clearly an omission. The G15 was dubbed G15Mk2 to set it apart the G15 Mk1, a bike sold in the US only and which was terminated in 1963.

As a result of changing policies, the AJS brand was deleted from the 1967-68 N-V line-up of heavy models. The M33 isn't represented in any of the the spare part books, but going by the sales leaflets it's clear the M33 was specified with a chrome-plated standard mudguard, p/n 030101 (the actual part number for the chrome-plated version, if there ever was one, is unknown). The reason for the omission may be that the AJS 33 wasn't exported to the US, and after the AMC collapse in the summer of 1966, it seems the 33CSR wasn't exported either.

** It shall be noted that Matchless 650 roadsters were equipped with WM2x18 rims at the front, NM24872, even though the tyre was 3.25x18.

-Knut
 
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Hi Knut,
thank you for your cleary answer.
I have in my spares the front and rear CSR (steel) mudguards with stays and the rear CSR rear loop.
It will be easy to come back to CSR.
I need only the CSR seat and the rhombus type tank badges (my tank has the largest one).
Who supply it?.
As i said before my 33 CSR was a december 1967: maybe had the swept back pipes and rear set?.
Thank you.
Piero
 
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Dear Piero,

If you think your mudguards are genuine, there never was swept-back pipes, rear-sets and a reverse g/b cam plate fitted to your bike. It was probably assembled or re-manufactured after termination of the cafe-racer production run early in 1967. As mentioned by Paul Morin, last cafe-racer styled G15CSR or M33CSR was S/N 120511. Does your serial number exceed this?

Numerous unsold G15 and possibly some M33 bikes made in late 1966 and early 1967 were put into storage at AMC (by then N-V Matchless Division), robbed of cycle parts which were used for spares, and later sold at discount prices using cycle and engine parts off later models. Thus, it's possible your M33CSR was made late in 1966, put into storage, "remanufactured" in the autumn of 1967 and subsequenly shipped to the Italian importer. The "remanufacture" may have included fitting mudguards off the contemporary G15CSR which by then had become a sports tourer. The parts used are not listed in the last spares book - I believe they are the same as the last G15CS, but not sure of this. I would be interested to have this confirmed.
The twin seat is another chapter. For bikes made and delivered in the 1967 manufacturing year, the seat fitted was to 1965 spec - 031528. Bikes made or remanufactured for the 1968 model year received a new seat off the G15CS which had chrome trim along the border, p/n 032271. Thus you will find 1967 G15CSR in sports-touring guise (no rear-sets and no swept-back headers) having alloy mudguards and the 031528 seat, concentric carbs and coil ignition, and a similar 1968 G15CSR having steel mudguards and the 032271 seat. The build book changed with each batch, it seems.
Maybe the batches were so small (50 to 200 bikes) that N-V considered it worthless to revise the spare parts book. This must have been the case for the model 33, of which few bikes seem to have been in storage, as I have never seen a 1968 model year 33 or 33CSR. Remember, at this time N-V was very focused on developing the Commando, the P11 series and the Y4 Stormer m-x bike. Apart from the small updates mentioned on re-manufactured bikes to clear stocks, the assembly line for the G15, 650SS and Atlas models came to an end during 2. Quarter 1968. However, the Dommie assembly line was later revitalised for the 650 Mercury model, an entry level model. Assembly of the Mercury started in October 1968 and lasted until February 1970.

Here is a restored sample of a G15CSR made in the spring of 1967 and probably sold as a 1968 model (which it is not). Please notice Concentric carbs and coil ignition.

One of the last G15CSR's (including "ape hanger" handlebar) coming off the assembly line in late spring / summer of 1967. This sample is claimed to be completely original, however 18" wheels are out of place for a '67 model:
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/old-bike-australasia/20160804/282660391785828

Here is an extract of Paul Morin's article on the Norton-Matchless Hybrids.

"The (G15 and M33, my comment) C.S.R continued production through 1966 (when the 18" wheels were changed to 19", thus slightly increasing the gearing as both sizes used 3.50 rear tyres) until early 1967. The last 'café-racer' was 120511. After this the 33 C.S.R. was dropped and the Matchless lost its 'café-racer' status, (a sure indication that the Rocker period had passed) and coil/Concentric models with standard footrests and normal exhaust-pipes using Norton silencers converted the machine into a 'sports tourer' (approx. 50 produced). The 'café-racer' C.S.R. machines did not use Norton silencers because of clearance problems with the positioning of the rearset items. However an unusual final batch in mid-1967 was produced. The large petrol tank was replaced with a 2 gallon scrambles item but with chrome sides, and with high 'ape-hanger' handlebars the C.S.R. capitulated as an American styled 'street machine' (approx. 50 produced)."


Regards,
Knut
 
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Dear Piero,

If you think your mudguards are genuine, there never was swept-back pipes, rear-sets and a reverse g/b cam plate fitted to your bike. It was probably assembled or re-manufactured after termination of the cafe-racer production run early in 1967. As mentioned by Paul Morin, last cafe-racer styled G15CSR or M33CSR was S/N 120511. Does your serial number exceed this?

Numerous unsold G15 and possibly some M33 bikes made in late 1966 and early 1967 were put into storage at AMC (by then N-V Matchless Division), robbed of cycle parts which were used for spares, and later sold at discount prices using cycle and engine parts off later models. Thus, it's possible your M33CSR was made late in 1966, put into storage, "remanufactured" in the autumn of 1967 and subsequenly shipped to the Italian importer. The "remanufacture" may have included fitting mudguards off the contemporary G15CSR which by then had become a sports tourer. The parts used are not listed in the last spares book - I believe they are the same as the last G15CS, but not sure of this. I would be interested to have this confirmed.
The twin seat is another chapter. For bikes made and delivered in the 1967 manufacturing year, the seat fitted was to 1965 spec - 031528. Bikes made or remanufactured for the 1968 model year received a new seat off the G15CS which had chrome trim along the border, p/n 032271. Thus you will find 1967 G15CSR in sports-touring guise (no rear-sets and no swept-back headers) having alloy mudguards and the 031528 seat, concentric carbs and coil ignition, and a similar 1968 G15CSR having steel mudguards and the 032271 seat. The build book changed with each batch, it seems.
Maybe the batches were so small (50 to 200 bikes) that N-V considered it worthless to revise the spare parts book. This must have been the case for the model 33, of which few bikes seem to have been in storage, as I have never seen a 1968 model year 33 or 33CSR. Remember, at this time N-V was very focused on developing the Commando, the P11 series and the Y4 Stormer m-x bike. Apart from the small updates mentioned on re-manufactured bikes to clear stocks, the assembly line for the G15, 650SS and Atlas models came to an end during 2. Quarter 1968. However, the Dommie assembly line was later revitalised for the 650 Mercury model, an entry level model. Assembly of the Mercury started in October 1968 and lasted until February 1970.

Here is a restored sample of a G15CSR made in the spring of 1967 and probably sold as a 1968 model (which it is not). Please notice Concentric carbs and coil ignition.

One of the last G15CSR's (including "ape hanger" handlebar) coming off the assembly line in late spring / summer of 1967. This sample is claimed to be completely original, however 18" wheels are out of place for a '67 model:
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/old-bike-australasia/20160804/282660391785828

Here is an extract of Paul Morin's article on the Norton-Matchless Hybrids.

"The (G15 and M33, my comment) C.S.R continued production through 1966 (when the 18" wheels were changed to 19", thus slightly increasing the gearing as both sizes used 3.50 rear tyres) until early 1967. The last 'café-racer' was 120511. After this the 33 C.S.R. was dropped and the Matchless lost its 'café-racer' status, (a sure indication that the Rocker period had passed) and coil/Concentric models with standard footrests and normal exhaust-pipes using Norton silencers converted the machine into a 'sports tourer' (approx. 50 produced). The 'café-racer' C.S.R. machines did not use Norton silencers because of clearance problems with the positioning of the rearset items. However an unusual final batch in mid-1967 was produced. The large petrol tank was replaced with a 2 gallon scrambles item but with chrome sides, and with high 'ape-hanger' handlebars the C.S.R. capitulated as an American styled 'street machine' (approx. 50 produced)."


Regards,
Knut
Dear Knut,
my 33 is 12056x sent to the Italian dealer on 7 december 1967.
Also the other two 33 sent exceed with numbers.
I know well the bike in the picture, is anice 1967 CSR (for sale now) of my friend in Milano.
Please, let me know.
Thank you.
Piero
 
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Hi Piero,

I don't think Paul Morin meant to say that M33 and M33CSR were dropped at exactly s/n 120511. Yours is 50+ bikes after the breaking point, probably within the same week. If the other two bikes are near your s/n, Paul's statement holds. The exact production week of 120511 as well as your bike can be obtained from the dating service of the AJS/M Owner's Club. I assume it's within the first quarter of 1967.

Any way, if you have a matching number bike, it would have left Plumstead either looking like the Ferrari Restauri bike above, or - if it was remanufactured - having mudguards similar to the bike in the article cited in my last posting. It is highly unlikely a CSR left Plumstead having cycle parts off a G12CSR at the rear and a M33 roadster up front (does it fit a 19" wheel at all?), while parts for the G15CSR "sports tourer" were readily available. The likely explanation is that your bike crashed at some point in time and the owner fitted whatever parts he could obtain to bring it back on the road.

Out of curiosity, what is the asking price of the Ferrari Restauri bike?

-Knut
 
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Hi Piero,

I don't think Paul Morin meant to say that M33 and M33CSR were dropped at exactly s/n 120511. Yours is 50+ bikes after the breaking point, probably within the same week. If the other two bikes are near your s/n, Paul's statement holds. The exact production week of 120511 as well as your bike can be obtained from the dating service of the AJS/M Owner's Club. I assume it's within the first quarter of 1967.

Any way, if you have a matching number bike, it would have left Plumstead either looking like the Ferrari Restauri bike above, or - if it was remanufactured - having mudguards similar to the bike in the article cited in my last posting. It is highly unlikely a CSR left Plumstead having cycle parts off a G12CSR at the rear and a M33 roadster up front (does it fit a 19" wheel at all?), while parts for the G15CSR "sports tourer" were readily available. The likely explanation is that your bike crashed at some point in time and the owner fitted whatever parts he could obtain to bring it back on the road.

Out of curiosity, what is the asking price of the Ferrari Restauri bike?

-Knut
Hi Knut.
The G15 CSR is for sale for 8.500 euro.
Looks to me a good price.
I will spend more for my F15 restiration!
Piero
https://www.moto.it/moto-epoca/matchless/7352711

I dont think that the rear licenze plate is the original.

look for this bike for sale
https://www.subito.it/moto-e-scooter/matchless-g-12-csr-650-cc-treviso-295292320.htm
 
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Have only just seen this topic.

I used to be the machine dating officer for the AJS & Matchless Owners club and did a bit of research on this a few years back.

The records have about 120 AJS model 33s. Listed as 33, 33mkII or 33csr.

My list shows 6 of these went to Italy. All to Serio Gloria, Padova, Italy. Dates may differ to the NOC records, due to difference between build and dispatch dates.

1 33csr Feb 1966
2 33mkII Feb 1967
1 33mkII Sept 1967
1 33mkII Dec 1967 all of these are blue.
1 33csr Dec 1967 marked as "Hewlett Special" and red.

As an aside, the records show 3 AJS 33s as converted G15s (2 to Paris and 1 to UK) and one which had the G15 frame/engine number changed to make it an AJS. Presumably the dealers asked for AJS and the factory "converted" bikes in stock.

Hope this helps
 
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Great information, Les!

Hi Knut.
The G15 CSR is for sale for 8.500 euro.
Looks to me a good price.
I will spend more for my F15 restiration!
Piero
https://www.moto.it/moto-epoca/matchless/7352711

I dont think that the rear licenze plate is the original.
No, it isn't - seems to be a pattern out of the Unity Equipe catalogue.
The proper license plate for the G15 / M33 CSR is 029431 depicted here:
https://www.baxtercycle.com/product/02-9431-powder-coated-black-uk/

Otherwise a splendid bike. Now I just need a winning lottery ticket ....

The frame seems to be correct for a 1964 G12CSR, but shocks are not correct, the seat looks odd, and the rear mudguard looks dented somehow. The proportions are not right. Maybe it's the camera angle. I wonder what the engine stamping looks like?
Using a false serial number, is it worth € 7000 ?

-Knut
 
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Have only just seen this topic.

I used to be the machine dating officer for the AJS & Matchless Owners club and did a bit of research on this a few years back.

The records have about 120 AJS model 33s. Listed as 33, 33mkII or 33csr.

My list shows 6 of these went to Italy. All to Serio Gloria, Padova, Italy. Dates may differ to the NOC records, due to difference between build and dispatch dates.
1 33csr Feb 1966
2 33mkII Feb 1967
1 33mkII Sept 1967
1 33mkII Dec 1967 all of these are blue.
1 33csr Dec 1967 marked as "Hewlett Special" and red.

As an aside, the records show 3 AJS 33s as converted G15s (2 to Paris and 1 to UK) and one which had the G15 frame/engine number changed to make it an AJS. Presumably the dealers asked for AJS and the factory "converted" bikes in stock.

Hope this helps
Hi.
NOC has three 33 sent to Gloria of Padova on 7 december 1967, but dont say the type and colour.
One of these three is mine and arrived to me with engine 33CSR /120... but with MKIII wear.
Cannot believe the previous owners changed fenders, seat, etc.
Piero
 
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Hi Piero,
What you mean is that the NOC informed you 3 bikes .were shipped ..... on December 7th, 1967. According to Les, one was a M33 and one was a M33CSR, apparently a re-engineered bike. And the third ....
Les wrote that the former was blue, the latter red. if your information is correct, there is still one bike out there,

-Knut
 
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Hi.
Like NOC says there is a third bike sent.
Les says are listed bikes as 33, 33mkII or 33csr.
I know the wear of the MKII and CSR but would know the differences between the 33.
“Hewlett Special"?: what was the main differences?.
Thank you.
Piero
 
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For the time span they were built, there is no difference between Matchless G15 Mk2/CSR and AJS M33 /CSR models apart from the paint scheme and the tank badges.

-Knut
 
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For the time span they were built, there is no difference between Matchless G15 Mk2/CSR and AJS M33 /CSR models apart from the paint scheme and the tank badges.

-Knut
Hi Knut.
What about “Hewlett Special"?.
Piero
 
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What about “Hewlett Special"?
Yes, what about that bike? Apparently it was a bike made to special order. You need to track down the importer in Genova or the owner of the bike to find out more. If you've got the chassis number it shouldn't be too difficult.

-Knut
 
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Hi, don’t know if this thread is still open but I’m trying to find out if I have a 33 csr, used to belong to my father. The frame number is 112663 if that helps. Any info would be much appreciated
Rick
 
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