Age of attendees-Classic Bike Show- near Bristol

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I went to that show, and found it very poor, with nothing much to see unless you were a fan of shoddily made Chinese tools, most of which could be bought from Ebay at lower prices.
 
i guess the price's will fall then? hang about ,,prewar triumphs still command good prices? what age groups are buying them. 70 year olds? Supply and demand will all ways been the main stay...and no more old commandos are being built in numbers that matter to the market place...But i do agree with you...cannot see 20 year old exup riders today wanting a classic brit in 30 years..but i will be 90 then,so it wont concern me.="marknorton"]I went to the Classic bike show yesterday with my son, and was surprised to see how few 'younger' enthusiasts of Classic Bikes are out there. It was interesting to note that whilst there were several exhibitors for Triumph/ BSA spares, there was little in fact no real representation for Norton spares-even a printed T shirt seller did not have a Norton shirt, but had almost every combination of BSA and Triumph logos.
The Norton owners club stand (conveniently next to Laverda for me!!) had a range of motorcycles including rotaries, although disappointingly (for me) not an 850mk2 for to inspect and photograph details.
It would be interesting to see age statistics of this show, but I would not be surprised if the average age of attendees and exhibitors alike was less than 45-50.
I am not sure if this bodes well for long term interest ( say next 30 yrs) in Old British machines, and particularly Nortons.
Are Norton lovers a dying breed? how do we get new an younger interest into the marque to stop it dying out? Thoughts guys?[/quote]
 
Younger people in most cases are not able to afford an older bike, and this tends to mean interest in old Brits is mainly restricted to people in their 50s or 60s.
 
Carbonfibre said:
Younger people in most cases are not able to afford an older bike, and this tends to mean interest in old Brits is mainly restricted to people in their 50s or 60s.
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I have met many younger than me with an old bike, nearly all Japanese some Italian, worth more than my Commando. Kawasaki KH range 400 and 750 triples, RGV 500, RD500, Z900, Z1 all top price machines. Recently, I have noticed that many of these type of owners are adding something British to their collection.
Quite rightly, if I was younger and looking for an older bike, a Fireblade, FZR, would be where I would spend my money - a lot of performance for reasonable money.
 
I was sitting with The Beast outside of the local combination gas and burger joint when I was approached by a young man of 19 or 20 years of age. He said “can I look at your bike?” I thought the question was phrased a little strange since he could see it from where he was standing. I said “sure” and he proceeded to pour over every inch of it. He said with a tinge of awe “I have only seen these in books.”

I have often thought of what comes next for our Nortons. When it comes to bits of history we are only caretakers, seeing these bikes on into the future. Norton owners tend to develop and upgrade their machines to be used and ridden verses efforts to adhere to a ridged code of correctness and restoration. Thanks to the work and dedication of many Norton owners, the future Nortons will be more reliable and better machines thanks to continued engineering and development. Like the Vincent I think they will naturally become more expensive over time. In the case of the Vincent the sad truth is they have now become the play things of the super rich or merely museum piece given their high cost. That's sad because bikes are made to be used. I do not think this will happen to Nortons because they are more numerous that their Stevenage counterparts. Also, while Norton prices have risen they are still lower than the cost of most new bikes and they are not likely to deprecate. This alone makes classic bike ownership attractive.

The real wild card, in my opinion is mechanical ability. Most Norton owners are not only willing to do their own work, they would be hard pressed to find someone that would even attempt repairs to something that old. The mechanics of today have become parts replacers and computer users. Not only that, major repairs for even modern bikes are cost prohibitive when shop rates top $75 an hour. To appeal to a new generation of enthusiasts, you have to have a love of the brand coupled with the desire to do your own work. I am not sure if the generation the grew up playing video games will be as enamored with mechanical things as we, the generation that grew up wrenching on old cars and bikes. Only time will tell. I do know that my kid expects to inherit the Beast upon my passing so there is at least one younger future owner.
 
Big_Jim59 said:
I am not sure if the generation the grew up playing video games will be as enamored with mechanical things as we, the generation that grew up wrenching on old cars and bikes. Only time will tell.
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good point!
 
Yes, I was at the Bristol show and thought the same. It's not just classic bikes, though. A couple of years ago at a bike meet my wife said "When I first met you, all bikers were our age. They still are! " We've been married 25 years this May......
 
Big_Jim59 said:
The real wild card, in my opinion is mechanical ability. Most Norton owners are not only willing to do their own work, they would be hard pressed to find someone that would even attempt repairs to something that old. The mechanics of today have become parts replacers and computer users. Not only that, major repairs for even modern bikes are cost prohibitive when shop rates top $75 an hour. To appeal to a new generation of enthusiasts, you have to have a love of the brand coupled with the desire to do your own work. I am not sure if the generation the grew up playing video games will be as enamored with mechanical things as we, the generation that grew up wrenching on old cars and bikes. Only time will tell. I do know that my kid expects to inherit the Beast upon my passing so there is at least one younger future owner.
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What thoughtful posts on this thread! I have seen this lack of young people in every hobby I have and of my pals have lamented about this same issue. "Where are the young folks?" Shopping mall? Video games? Beach? No one really seems to know. While this seems very distressing, there are some bright spots. As already mentioned, the internet has changed everything. It has allowed folks widely separated by distance to get together in communities of interest.

I am a member of several of these communities. In one group for the Hudson Super Six cars of the 1920s we can group together to make parts and share information on these cars that are now so old that no living person can tell us how to do things. We figure it out with written material and often fix things with new processes that were not invented when the cars were new.

I have little doubt that succeeding generations will do the same with our old bikes. Most will not know how to change a spark plug but others will be able to do things we can not even imagine. Just reading the threads on this list has kept me busy for a couple of weeks catching up on the ever changing state of Norton. When I first had a Commando back in 1971 a Boyer would have made a big difference. I might still have that bike now if it would have kept running. Now Boyer looks to be gone and have been replaced by even better ignition systems. That is just one example among many.

I do hope some of us will not upgrade our Nortons. Some of the best preserved and most original should be retained in completely original condition to let us know how they were when they were built.

Paul SoCal
 
New to this board but thought this would be a good place to start as I can identify closely with the themes of this topic.

In the last month I have jumped into classic bike ownership and where better place to start than a Mk1 71 Commando Roadster. Its been a mixed experience so far but more to follow on that front...

Im in the generation youre talking about at 32. I have only a couple of friends under 40 who share my interests in things "vintage", cars, bikes, watches etc basically anything mechanical and made by engineers as opposed to electronic. I collect vintage cars also and when I go to a club day Im lucky if there are a handful of guys my own age. Most of my friends are closer to my parents age than mine. Looking at the broader community of enthusiasts I dont see a rosy future for the vintage bike community. In this age of playstations, facebook and whatever else, the consumerist nature of Generation Y seems to show that things from times past have little relevance in young peoples lives today. Its about having the newest latest greatest fastest thing around regardless of how or why it was made.

An example of this came up recently in a local sense. A well known collector of porsche cars passed away recently and the family considered what to do with the half dozen historic porsches. The son was in his late 20s and basically had no interest in race cars or maintaining his fathers collection. The cars were sold, a couple locally to other aged 60+ collectors and the rest were sold to europe. Those cars will in all likelihood never be seen locally again. I couldnt afford to buy them. The interesting thing is that there are probably 20 guys in the country with significant historic porsche collections and they are all 60+. Very few of them have children who are interested in old cars so those cars will probably disappear also, unless "my two friends and I" come up with the millions of $ to buy them. The less these cars are seen, the more it exacerbates the problem. Because I have an interest I understand the significance of the 550 spider, the 908, 917 etc and events like the targo florio, mille miglia, daytona etc. Ask most car guys under 40 why le mans or the mille (or the TT) were (are) important, most wouldnt have a clue. As someone said to me the other day... hard to imagine current GP riders at the TT. :roll:

Having ridden a road bike since I was 17 (and MX before that) I always look out for other bikes on the road. I dont remember seeing a Commando on the road in the last 5 years or more. The occasional bonnie and some period jap stuff maybe but a norton? Not a chance. Thats a real shame. Put together lack of exposure with young folks general disinterest and, for me at least, it doesnt seem like a stellar future.
 
blacklotus99 said:
New to this board but thought this would be a good place to start as I can identify closely with the themes of this topic.

In the last month I have jumped into classic bike ownership and where better place to start than a Mk1 71 Commando Roadster. Its been a mixed experience so far but more to follow on that front...

Im in the generation youre talking about at 32. I have only a couple of friends under 40 who share my interests in things "vintage", cars, bikes, watches etc basically anything mechanical and made by engineers as opposed to electronic. I collect vintage cars also and when I go to a club day Im lucky if there are a handful of guys my own age. Most of my friends are closer to my parents age than mine. Looking at the broader community of enthusiasts I dont see a rosy future for the vintage bike community. In this age of playstations, facebook and whatever else, the consumerist nature of Generation Y seems to show that things from times past have little relevance in young peoples lives today. Its about having the newest latest greatest fastest thing around regardless of how or why it was made.

An example of this came up recently in a local sense. A well known collector of porsche cars passed away recently and the family considered what to do with the half dozen historic porsches. The son was in his late 20s and basically had no interest in race cars or maintaining his fathers collection. The cars were sold, a couple locally to other aged 60+ collectors and the rest were sold to europe. Those cars will in all likelihood never be seen locally again. I couldnt afford to buy them. The interesting thing is that there are probably 20 guys in the country with significant historic porsche collections and they are all 60+. Very few of them have children who are interested in old cars so those cars will probably disappear also, unless "my two friends and I" come up with the millions of $ to buy them. The less these cars are seen, the more it exacerbates the problem. Because I have an interest I understand the significance of the 550 spider, the 908, 917 etc and events like the targo florio, mille miglia, daytona etc. Ask most car guys under 40 why le mans or the mille (or the TT) were (are) important, most wouldnt have a clue. As someone said to me the other day... hard to imagine current GP riders at the TT. :roll:

Having ridden a road bike since I was 17 (and MX before that) I always look out for other bikes on the road. I dont remember seeing a Commando on the road in the last 5 years or more. The occasional bonnie and some period jap stuff maybe but a norton? Not a chance. Thats a real shame. Put together lack of exposure with young folks general disinterest and, for me at least, it doesnt seem like a stellar future.
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Unfortunately, I tend to agree with you Blacklotus,
I'm in pretty much the same boat as you, I'm 36 with most (all?) of my old bike enthusiast mates in their 50s and 60s. I do believe we were the last generation to be (almost) spared by the computer revolution, so we were the last kids to fall out of real trees, make real mud cakes and learn how to use a spanner/wrench. The computer, I'm afraid has caused a huge generation gap, I feel we have a lot more in common with our parents generation and the generation that are young enough to be our kids.

I see very little interest from the younger generation in anything mechanical or electrical, If I was born this side of the century I would want to become a plumber or something similar, imagine how much work you would have in 20 or 30 years time when all the "Mr. Fix it handymen" have passed away.

I guess the only upside is that, given how difficult it is to work on modern machinery (pretty much anything built after about 1990ish) those few that do want want to work on vintage stuff will have no choice but to look at cars and bikes that were built before they were born.
So maybe it's not all doom and gloom?

Webby
 
It's not that most young people don't want to work on an old bike. They don't want to work on any bike. Buy new, Change the oil, and go mentality. When it needs work sell it and buy a newer one. Like the other poster said it's about what's newer, cooler, and instant gratification for most kids.
 
pelican said:
It's not that most young people don't want to work on an old bike. They don't want to work on any bike. Buy new, Change the oil, and go mentality. When it needs work sell it and buy a newer one. Like the other poster said it's about what's newer, cooler, and instant gratification for most kids.
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This is an excellent thread with excellent points throughout. To Pelican's comment: don't forget on a new bike it is cheaper to dispose of it than fix it. I wanted to have what I consider a top end done on a Hinckley Triumph triple and it was less than half to buy a low mile motor and put in it, which I did myself. New bikes are not made to fix, they are made to ride and accessorize period. The cost of parts is astronomical compared to a Norton and on top of it most kids or younger people below 30 don't even know how their bikes run except you turn the key, twist the throttle and it magically goes. I think there will always be that handful that get it and take an interest. Those are the ones to really encourage and help. We have one here on this forum trying to fix his fist vintage bike. I don't waste time seeking or trying to make people interested, but the ones that approach me or show an interest are the ones I help and will keep our old bikes going.
 
I also think that younger people are losing touch with the ability to master their belongings, instead they pay someone to repair their car or bike because the complexity of modern bikes and cars puts them out of reach to the budding home customiser and repairer.
Take the import car scene for example, a young guy buys an import car and wants to customise it, so he pays a guy to fit a big turbo and intercooler, pays another guy to dyno tune and remap the computer and maybe the owner screws on a premade body widing kit with his battery drill and a few other bolt on trinkets. Job done, skill level 2/10
Classic bikes and cars probably frighten them off, without the basis of metalshop and woodshop at schools to ground them, and of course a handy parent willing to spend the time teaching, these kids grow up afraid to pull something apart and think it is the job of others. So the people who have a grounding in tools and repair, and thinking outside the square get older and older because it is not being installed in the youth. We is a dying breed in some ways although there will always be an exception or two thankfully. Also motorcycle new licences have a downward trend in a lot of countries and the average of motorcyclists is rising ever older.

There is an interesting book that somewhat covers this loss of general skills and I highly recommend it- called "Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work" by Mathew Crawford
Here is the blurb;

Philosopher and motorcycle repair-shop owner Crawford extols the value of making and fixing things in this masterful paean to what he calls manual competence, the ability to work with oneÖs hands. According to the author, our alienation from how our possessions are made and how they work takes many forms: the decline of shop class, the design of goods whose workings cannot be accessed by users (such as recent Mercedes models built without oil dipsticks) and the general disdain with which we regard the trades in our emerging information economy. Unlike todayÖs knowledge worker, whose work is often so abstract that standards of excellence cannot exist in many fields (consider corporate executives awarded bonuses as their companies sink into bankruptcy), the person who works with his or her hands submits to standards inherent in the work itself: the lights either turn on or they donÖt, the toilet flushes or it doesnÖt, the motorcycle roars or sputters. With wit and humor, the author deftly mixes the details of his own experience as a tradesman and then proprietor of a motorcycle repair shop with more philosophical considerations.
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whwn Dodgy refers to " imported cars" I think he is refering to our system of buying used cars from Japan. They drive on the correct side :wink: of the road so we get the bargains as they sell them early to prop up their car industry...
Here you can pick up a 200HP Turbo Subaru Legacy in good order for under 10K drive it till it stops and get another....
I have a Subaru Legacy 2.5I Jap import and its over 12 years old and its in perfect order...its been in the shop twice for minor things....but if the tranny of motor go then its bye bye... :|
 
I've followed this thread with interest. I'm in my early 40s, came through the school system when shop classes were being phased out in favour of computer labs. Amongst my age group, very few guys that I hang with are particularly handy mechanically. Some are but most of them are in the 50+ age category and grew up in rural areas where keeping your own stuff running was a necessity. Those who grew up in the 80s and later seeemed more interested in video games than tinkering with things mechanical.

There is always plenty of interest when I have my Commando out, I get lots of comments but few guys without grey hair know what it is.

Time will tell what the future holds. In my 20s I'd not have given vintage bikes much more than a second glance. But into my 30s, I was tiring of the crotch rocket scene and gravitated to Ducati singles, Yamaha two strokes and then my Norton. I hope the same holds true for the next generation. Generation Y seems plenty interested in sportbikes and Motocross, we'll see what they turn to when they get a bit older.
 
A couple of people have mentioned the throw away nature of vehicles these days and thats very true. Its not only the vehicles that are made to be disposable but the parts availability and supply chain that the manufacturers have behind it. Not sure about bikes but most car companies now dont supply parts to rebuild gearboxes when they fail. Youre forced to buy a new one from the manufacturer (Im thinking BMW and Land Rover), meaning they dont have to supply parts so its cheaper for them, and they make money when you buy a complete gearbox from them.

Porsche went through an infamous period in the late 90s when due to manufacturing and design flaws a large percentage of engines in their cars expired. The engines were designed not to be repaired and the parts arent available anyway. You have to buy a crate motor from the factory and bolt it in. Fine if you have warranty, 20k disaster if you dont. That anecdote about Triumph sounds similar.

My concern about classic bikes is having the techs around to fix them. Like many people my age I can do just the basics with the tools and skill that I have, anything else, I need experts. Young mechanics going through their apprenticeships now are taught how to plug the vehicle into the computer, read out the codes from the book, and replace the failed parts as per the computer report. Thats it. It applies equally to all vintage vehicles, who's going to work on them?

Think about people like Mick Hemmings and others who raced Commandos in the period. A lot of that accumulated knowledge will be lost when they retire. This is going to be a problem for the younger generation when those people arent around who "know it all" from experience, not just reading it from some book.
 
I try to get my son involved in old cars and bikes....to some degree of success. Bought a slighly damaged VW Beetle mainly as I know them well and over here once a vehicle hits 40 it road charges are around 1/3 or less.
Over Xmas I had him pull the motor, strip it, paint all the bits etc.... the problem is that you can't do all that in a day....it can take weeks.... finally got all the bits together on the bench and under my supervision and " The Complete Idiot Book" he assembled the engine....each day he saw it grow in size...finally the day arrived and we fitted it and it ran perfectly, took it for a spin up the road. Cost of rebuild...who cares....not a lot....look on Sons face when it fired up...Priceless.
Next the body needs a make over and then learn to drive.
Seeing as the schools don't focus on Trade quals anymore.....you have to do it at home.
I spent the whole day on the Combat today....over 10 hours..... tomorrow its back to Corporate stuff....sadly pays the bills..... :roll:
 
While I agree that most of the young folks I've personally met aren't involved in any hands-on mechanical maintenance or repair, I have to say that there are quire a few out there who do. I also hang out on a Ducati Board and find that many of them do their own maintenance due to the high maintenance costs of the marque. I've seen quite a few posts by some young folks doing their own valve adjustments for their Ducati's. If you've never adjusted the valves on a four-valve desmodromic engine I can assure you it's not your average valve adjustment.
 
Thought I had posted to this, but my cpu was having issues and it doesn't look like it went through.

At 36, I don't consider myself a young one. Bought my Commando as my first bike when I was 22 (had been riding for a decade prior). I've since owned BMW and Ducati machines, but always come back to the Norton. There is just nothing like it. I will say that there are a number of 'younger' guys and gals out there who dig these old machines. I am one of the younger ones when it comes to owners clubs, but most of the younger people I know are more into vintage racing (I don't race at this time, but do dig seeing the old bikes run), and aren't necessarily marque specific. For many, I'm just as welcome on my R90/6 as I am on my Commando (probably the wifes Guzzi if I rode it out). Its more about getting together and having a good time on vintage machines. Owners clubs can just be a bit stiff at times.
 
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