1975 Norton 850 Restore

L.A.B. · Oct 17, 2015

MS850 said:
L.A.B. said:

MS850 said:

My bike has wet sumped over night. about 10oz. ? all that have just read, sounds excessive.

Click to expand...

Was that an apparent drop in the tank oil level or the amount you drained from the sump?

Click to expand...

Both, the day before the level almost to high, the oil level in the morning was was in the hash marks.

Although that is perhaps more than one would expect from a Mk3 "overnight" it's not excessive and certain factors can alter the rate of drainage-such as oil temperature at shut-down and ambient temperature, oil type (my own Mk3 for example, the tank would drain in a little over a week with Mobil 1 synthetic, whereas SAE 50 mono would take several weeks) however, unless the Mk3 timing cover anti-drain valve has stuck open, which is not unknown, then that oil will be finding its way to the sump via another route which can often be across the pump shafts from the feed side to the scavenge (see AMR pump shaft seal mod.) and lapping the pump (did you?) can also reduce the rate of drainage, but I suggest you monitor the ongoing situation for now.

http://www.doov.com/apps/nortoncompanio ... n&Itemid=9

http://www.amr-of-tucson.com/nortech.html

two o-ring seals are installed inside the pump to prevent oil from passing between the feed and return sides which also can contribute to wetsumping.

MS850 · Oct 17, 2015

Thanks for getting back L.A.B.
Puller timing cover, removed the pump, very little wear. I followed the C25 - Servicing the Oil Pump. lapped the pump and gears.

L.A.B. · Oct 17, 2015

MS850 said:
Puller timing cover, removed the pump, very little wear. I followed the C25 - Servicing the Oil Pump. lapped the pump and gears.

That's good.

Did you happen to notice if the anti-drain plunger had jammed open or not?

Presumably you have the correct Mk3 pump to timing cover oil seal (06-6190)? And there wasn't any apparent damage to the timing cover gasket in the area surrounding the crankcase drilling at "A" (photo, below, but note there isn't usually any corresponding drilling in the Mk3 timing cover).

06-6190

comnoz said:

PeterJoe · Oct 17, 2015

If you like you can isolate the sources of your wet sumping. First you can install your oil pump then thoroughly clean all of the oil up around the oil pump and crank case area. Plug off the outlet of your oil pump with some sort of a rubber plug. Remove the oil screen and drain plug from the bottom of the crank case. Add oil to your oil tank and let it sit for awhile and observe where the oil leaks are appearing. If there is an excessive leak coming from the oil pump body and brass end plate you may want to resurface that again. If the leak is coming from the input shaft , the steel end plate and you have oil backflowing through the oil pick up passageway (which can be viewed looking up through the oil screen opening) that means you have an internal leak within the oil pump. The AMR mod may help. The oil pump may also leak between the pump and the crank case itself possibly because of a bad oil pump gasket.

After those checks, remove the rubber plug in the oil pump and the 1/4-20 plug in the engine case then install the timing cover. After the timing cover is installed leave the rocker feed pipe off. Let it sit overnight and see if any oil drools out through the rocker feed port. The Mark III has an anti wet sumping valve built into the timing cover. So you should have very little oil running out if any from the rocker feed port opening.

Last and least you need to make sure that your timing gasket surfaces are in good condition around the threaded opening in the crankcase. That could be a source of wet sumping as well. Seeing how you have an 850 Mark III I would be inclined to just plug that threaded hole in the crankcase using a couple of 1/4-20 set screws with locktite stacked on top of each other. That way you don't have to deal with that hole anymore.

Peter Joe

MS850 · Oct 17, 2015

L.A.B. said:
MS850 said:

Puller timing cover, removed the pump, very little wear. I followed the C25 - Servicing the Oil Pump. lapped the pump and gears.

Click to expand...

That's good.

Did you happen to notice if the anti-drain plunger had jammed open or not?

Presumably you have the correct Mk3 pump to timing cover oil seal (06-6190)? And there wasn't any apparent damage to the timing cover gasket in the area surrounding the crankcase drilling at "A" (photo, below, but note there isn't usually any corresponding drilling in the Mk3 timing cover).

06-6190

comnoz said:

Click to expand...

Yes correct seal, and yes the drill at "A" goes nowhere :?

MS850 · Oct 17, 2015

PeterJoe said:
If you like you can isolate the sources of your wet sumping. First you can install your oil pump then thoroughly clean all of the oil up around the oil pump and crank case area. Plug off the outlet of your oil pump with some sort of a rubber plug. Remove the oil screen and drain plug from the bottom of the crank case. Add oil to your oil tank and let it sit for awhile and observe where the oil leaks are appearing. If there is an excessive leak coming from the oil pump body and brass end plate you may want to resurface that again. If the leak is coming from the input shaft , the steel end plate and you have oil backflowing through the oil pick up passageway (which can be viewed looking up through the oil screen opening) that means you have an internal leak within the oil pump. The AMR mod may help. The oil pump may also leak between the pump and the crank case itself possibly because of a bad oil pump gasket.

After those checks, remove the rubber plug in the oil pump and the 1/4-20 plug in the engine case then install the timing cover. After the timing cover is installed leave the rocker feed pipe off. Let it sit overnight and see if any oil drools out through the rocker feed port. The Mark III has an anti wet sumping valve built into the timing cover. So you should have very little oil running out if any from the rocker feed port opening.

Last and least you need to make sure that your timing gasket surfaces are in good condition around the threaded opening in the crankcase. That could be a source of wet sumping as well. Seeing how you have an 850 Mark III I would be inclined to just plug that threaded hole in the crankcase using a couple of 1/4-20 set screws with locktite stacked on top of each other. That way you don't have to deal with that hole anymore.

Peter Joe

Thanks Pete, good info,

I think I need to go for a ride, take a break from the bike. Might go for a ride with the local BMW club tomorrow, I ride a Vstrom but they say I can ride with them as long as I can spell "BMW" :lol:

MS850 · Oct 18, 2015

Well good news, sat overnight, the oil level at the same from yesterday.

thanks again for advice.
still waiting for the caliper piston, then on for a test/ring break in ride.

Torontonian · Oct 18, 2015

Big Money Wasted is my nickname for my Beemer. This summer I had pulled over the Norton to get into the woods to fish a small creek then 7 Beemer riders stopped to check on me so I popped out of the woods saying they were on the way to the Norton rally in Prince Edward County . I said all is good see ya there and 2 of them seemed incredulous that I would ride one there and back , camping too. Very fancy gear with helmet cameras.

MS850 · Oct 18, 2015

Torontonian said:
Big Money Wasted is my nickname for my Beemer. This summer I had pulled over the Norton to get into the woods to fish a small creek then 7 Beemer riders stopped to check on me so I popped out of the woods saying they were on the way to the Norton rally in Prince Edward County . I said all is good see ya there and 2 of them seemed incredulous that I would ride one there and back , camping too. Very fancy gear with helmet cameras.

Yeah Big money, They're getting really pricey. my Vstrom cost me $6K lightly used, with $3K worth of farkles. Ive had 5 Bmw's in the past, got priced out. The one I liked the most was a '04 RT. This BMW club does do a lot of camping though. I joined in '97 and still a member, sold my last BMW '01 1150GS in 2008.
Most guys in the BMW club are riders, no real motor heads. They drop the bike off at the dealer, get oil changed, service work, tires rotated( :roll: ) then ride home. I tell them I like bikes that came with points.
I was selling one of my BMW's they didn't buy it because I didn't have the service work done at the local dealer.
Im also on the Honda SOHC4 forum, and they ride a lot too, I see photos of people touring around the world , camping , commuters, that's another really good forum. There are a bunch off sharp guys with tons experience like this group.

74ok · Oct 18, 2015

MS850 said:
Im also on the Honda SOHC4 forum, and they ride a lot too, I see photos of people touring around the world , camping , commuters,

~ 9k miles in 30 days with ~ 40k on the clock
http://frankfoto.jimdo.com/trip-week-1/

MS850 · Oct 18, 2015

84ok said:
MS850 said:

Im also on the Honda SOHC4 forum, and they ride a lot too, I see photos of people touring around the world , camping , commuters,

Click to expand...

~ 9k miles in 30 days with ~ 40k on the clock
http://frankfoto.jimdo.com/trip-week-1/

Very nice, I sold my CB750 K6 a few months ago to make way for the MK3. Great bikes, nice power, dependable.

grandpaul · Oct 20, 2015

Easy-to-do "help" for minor wet sumping, is to "park" the pistons near TDC. Just ease down on the kicker till the pistons stop from compression, then push a little more.

This makes the oil in the crank have to work against gravity a little more and is probably where your crank ended up when you reported that oil level didn't drop at last check.

L.A.B. · Oct 20, 2015

grandpaul said:
Easy-to-do "help" for minor wet sumping, is to "park" the pistons near TDC. Just ease down on the kicker till the pistons stop from compression, then push a little more.

This makes the oil in the crank have to work against gravity a little more and is probably where your crank ended up when you reported that oil level didn't drop at last check.

However, as it's a Mk3, oil would have to be leaking past the timing cover anti-drain valve in order for the crank position to affect the rate of drainage.

MS850 · Oct 20, 2015

L.A.B. said:
grandpaul said:

Easy-to-do "help" for minor wet sumping, is to "park" the pistons near TDC. Just ease down on the kicker till the pistons stop from compression, then push a little more.

This makes the oil in the crank have to work against gravity a little more and is probably where your crank ended up when you reported that oil level didn't drop at last check.

Click to expand...

However, as it's a Mk3, oil would have to be leaking past the timing cover anti-drain valve in order for the crank position to affect the rate of drainage.

Thanks grandpaul and L.A.B. for info,
Day 3 three now and the oil level hasn't dropped

, the only thing I did while the timing cover was off was lap the pump and seal the gasket with Hylomar Universal Blue Gasket sealant. The oil pump didn't appear to be bad enough to loose a pint over night so I'm assuming the cover gasket wasn't sealing the screw hole as scene in the photo marked "A" on page 7. Plus after purchasing the bike there wasn't an issue of wet sumping. During rebuild when the cover was off all I did was a new timing chain adjuster, timing shaft seal, 06-6190 seal, new gasket and I didn't disturb the pump.

pete.v · Oct 20, 2015

I am not sure using sealer on that particular gasket is wise. Clean and flat is the way to go.

MS850 · Oct 20, 2015

pete.v said:
I am not sure using sealer on that particular gasket is wise. Clean and flat is the way to go.

Oh well too late. thanks though,

I just took for a test drive/speed run, bike runs great.
only found two problems, 1- rear shock leaks (suspected) 2- one of the fork seal leaks, guess I goof it up installing new ones.

Also seems to vibrate more than what i remember on my '70 Commando. It smooths nicely above 4K, between 2.5K-4K get tingling at the grips.

L.A.B. · Oct 20, 2015

MS850 said:
Also seems to vibrate more than what i remember on my '70 Commando. It smooths nicely above 4K, between 2.5K-4K get tingling at the grips.

Try backing off the Isolastics by 1-2 holes, and also slacken the head steady suspension spring nut by a couple of turns?

Edit: I don't remember you mentioning whether you changed the Iso. rubbers or not-so it could be they are in need of replacement if increasing the clearance doesn't reduce the vibration?

pete.v · Oct 20, 2015

MS850 said:
Also seems to vibrate more than what i remember on my '70 Commando. It smooths nicely above 4K, between 2.5K-4K get tingling at the grips.

That's normal for MKIII's. It's cause they built for women. Fluffy, they are, them MKIII's

MS850 · Oct 20, 2015

pete.v said:
MS850 said:

Also seems to vibrate more than what i remember on my '70 Commando. It smooths nicely above 4K, between 2.5K-4K get tingling at the grips.

Click to expand...

That's normal for MKIII's. It's cause they built for women. Fluffy, they are, them MKIII's

hahahah, there's on in every crowd. :roll:

MS850 · Oct 20, 2015

L.A.B. said:
MS850 said:

Also seems to vibrate more than what i remember on my '70 Commando. It smooths nicely above 4K, between 2.5K-4K get tingling at the grips.

Click to expand...

Try backing off the Isolastics by 1-2 holes, and also slacken the head steady suspension spring nut by a couple of turns?

Edit: I don't remember you mentioning whether you changed the Iso. rubbers or not-so it could be they are in need of replacement if increasing the clearance doesn't reduce the vibration?

Yes I did replace both Iso's, Im not sure they are adjusted correctly. I have clearance .008 on the side with the adjustment but none on the opposite side.
thanks

1975 Norton 850 Restore

L.A.B.

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MS850

L.A.B.

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PeterJoe

MS850

MS850

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Torontonian

MS850

74ok

MS850

grandpaul

L.A.B.

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MS850

pete.v

MS850

L.A.B.

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