More on frames

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Also, I'm never sure everyone is talking about the same things The engine number, gearbox number, and certification plate number should all have the same serial number. The frame number might have started matching those three at some point,

The frame number generally matched the plate number from about May '75 (see dynodave's frame chart).

My 7/75 334xxx Mk3 has matching 6-digit frame* and plate numbers.

*The full frame stamp being *850*334xxx* (* = the NVT three lines in a circle limit stamp)


but they don't on any factory record I've seen.


Perhaps because you haven't sought information on a late enough (Mk3) model?

Edit: However, Joe Seifert stated in a previous discussion: "Unfortunately, the records I have do not give frame numbers for most 850s"


Finally, does anyone know for sure that the frame number is unique to each frame or if it is really a frame batch number as some have said.

Going by dynodave's chart that's a heck of a lot of batches, although he does refer to it as batch sequence number but I believe they are individual serial numbers.
 
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Well educated speculation is the best you are going to get, the Factory records do not exist to be 100% definitive, only enough to say very likely the frame number is unique and sequential. If its not sequential then potentially my bike could have a clone about as on the first registration the F number was used as the frame number not the plate number.
 
only enough to say very likely the frame number is unique and sequential. If its not sequential then potentially my bike could have a clone about as on the first registration the F number was used as the frame number not the plate number.



Perhaps our other UK members can say if the VIN/Chassis/Frame number recorded on their Commando's registration document is the frame (F) number or the plate number?
No need to give actual numbers only 'frame' or 'plate' as I'm guessing the 'frame' number (with or without the 'F') was the one generally used for the Commando "VIN/Chassis/Frame No.".
 
Hello everyone, first time post I think. Just acquired a basket case high rider. The engine # matches the # on the red frame tag 314xxx, the made date is 4 74, the frame # stamped into the head stock is F1085xx. The engine and ID# (VIN 314xxx) is lower than the one listed on Dyno Daves chart for a July 74 VIN 317XXX and the stamped frame # f1085xx is higher than the F1076xx listed on the chart.
 
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Also, I'm never sure everyone is talking about the same things The engine number, gearbox number, and certification plate number should all have the same serial number. The frame number might have started matching those three at some point, but they don't on any factory record I've seen.

Finally, does anyone know for sure that the frame number is unique to each frame or if it is really a frame batch number as some have said.

"Also, I'm never sure everyone is talking about the same things"

That is why I went to length in the other thread to provide a common set of terminology....and they are now on my webpage


1. You have poorly quoted me and my web site, http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm
It is very clear to me that the "Frame Batch sequence # " is a unique single number whether made by reynold or verlichi.
It is not clear to me that norton was the one to create or control the marking of the "frame" #, or was it the frame maker?

2. My making and using this name is to very clearly demonstrate that the "frame number"(Frame Batch sequence # is my term) is NOT the traditional NORTON VIN.

3. It would seem obvious that the Frame Batch sequence #-my term would/should be unique if (stupid) government agencies require it's use on ownership documents and reject the traditional NORTON VIN.

4. VIN vehicle identification number is the legacy name for the legally accepted identification by use of numbers and letters.

The "frame " numbers policy being used by national or state government agencies is not consistent and obviously is confusing to persons that can not keep these concepts and names separate.
Bad actors are those who use this confusion to create vehicle identification fraud. Counterfeit commando VIN plate are only one way to cloudy the legitimacy of a commando. As time passes I see more and more of this.
 
"Also, I'm never sure everyone is talking about the same things"

That is why I went to length in the other thread to provide a common set of terminology....and they are now on my webpage


1. You have poorly quoted me and my web site, http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm
It is very clear to me that the "Frame Batch sequence # " is a unique single number whether made by reynold or verlichi.
It is not clear to me that norton was the one to create or control the marking of the "frame" #, or was it the frame maker?

2. My making and using this name is to very clearly demonstrate that the "frame number"(Frame Batch sequence # is my term) is NOT the traditional NORTON VIN.

3. It would seem obvious that the Frame Batch sequence #-my term would/should be unique if (stupid) government agencies require it's use on ownership documents and reject the traditional NORTON VIN.

4. VIN vehicle identification number is the legacy name for the legally accepted identification by use of numbers and letters.

The "frame " numbers policy being used by national or state government agencies is not consistent and obviously is confusing to persons that can not keep these concepts and names separate.
Bad actors are those who use this confusion to create vehicle identification fraud. Counterfeit commando VIN plate are only one way to cloudy the legitimacy of a commando. As time passes I see more and more of this.

1. Sorry I misunderstood. Don't think I quoted you. I just asked if anyone know for sure if they were a batch number or sequential number.
2. Sorry again that I misunderstood what you meant.
3. I know nothing about UK registration. I have 5 US titled Nortons. All 5 came from different US states. All use the engine/certification label number as the bike's VIN. I only buy numbers matching, titled bikes, so I don't know what the various states do when the engine and certification label do not match. In Virginia, officially the engine number is not used, but changing an engine can cause title issues (stupid law that is probably never enforced).
4. Don't know what you mean. In the US, VIN is not legacy. I probably am misunderstanding you again.

In my corrected original post you'll find it clear that there is confusion about the number stamped into the frame (what I call the frame number). Your' site is quite helpful, but clearly I have a frame that defies logic and there is a Factory Dispatch Record that shows that.
 
Hello everyone, first time post I think. Just acquired a basket case high rider. The engine # matches the # on the red frame tag 314xxx, the made date is 4 74, the frame # stamped into the head stock is F1085xx. The engine and ID# (VIN 314xxx) is lower than the one listed on Dyno Daves chart for a July 74 VIN 317XXX and the stamped frame # f185xx is higher than the F1076xx listed on the chart.

I guess you are unable to transcribe the frame # twice with out mistake. (sorry for jab) no such F185xxx
More importantly is the frames were not used in direct straight line sequence, I have never seen it claimed the frames to be used sequentially.
It might make sense if neither Reynold or Verluchi could deliver enough product to keep up orderly production. Any frame from any batch or source would make for a mixed sequence as you have demonstrated .

As a separate issue from the original precept of my webpage which was the fastback tail section wide/ narrow rear loop issue. I can report that here today at my shop I show 7 frames with the VIN tag on the LEFT, imperial tubing and narrow rear loop, sorry only have 3 frames(1 is late 73 750!) with the VIN tag on the RIGHT, metric tubing and wide rear loop. Yes it is a small sample but pretty much what I have expected and what I had seen before.
All my other frames are pre verluchi era and would not add anything to this issue. I own 15 commando's which includes basket cases.
 
VIN "vehicle identification number" is the legacy name for the legally accepted identification by use of numbers and letters.

I have lived in many states and the VIN WAS the long standing name for titling,registration and ownership...not serial number.
Most every where the frame has been the legal basis for identifying though there are exceptions like harley's and home made choppers, which in some jurisdictions (in the past), used the engine#.
Nortons legacy VIN numbering sequence started in the early 1900's and can be found in many glossy coffee table books among others and post WW2 reset with 1001 and changed from 4 digit to 5 digit in 1947 and up to 6 digit in 1962, until the end of commando in the range of 336xxx.
The norton frame numbers did not comply with the new 17 digit international marking system, yet were used occasionally by governments in LIEU of Nortons 6 digit VIN.

All of my commando bikes are documented as 6 digit NORTON VIN.
My featherbeds include the model + vin.
 
VIN "vehicle identification number" is the legacy name for the legally accepted identification by use of numbers and letters.

I have lived in many states and the VIN WAS the long standing name for titling,registration and ownership...not serial number.
Most every where the frame has been the legal basis for identifying though there are exceptions like harley's and home made choppers, which in some jurisdictions (in the past), used the engine#.
Nortons legacy VIN numbering sequence started in the early 1900's and can be found in many glossy coffee table books among others and post WW2 reset with 1001 and changed from 4 digit to 5 digit in 1947 and up to 6 digit in 1962, until the end of commando in the range of 336xxx.
The norton frame numbers did not comply with the new 17 digit international marking system, yet were used occasionally by governments in LIEU of Nortons 6 digit VIN.

All of my commando bikes are documented as 6 digit NORTON VIN.
My featherbeds include the model + vin.

Whatever! Every title I have has place for a VIN - for my Nortons, it's 6 numbers, for my Triumphs and BSAs it is whatever is on the frame neck and engine, for my Mini Cooper and my Mercedes is the 17 characters on the VIN plates in the cars. They are all the VIN. According to at least AN, Nortons don't have a VIN tag, they have a Certification label.

There's no point in sparring over words. I've already apologized publicly for misunderstanding you. What more do you need? I clearly started off trying to understand something - threads often turn into something else - this one has and I'm out.
 
I guess you are unable to transcribe the frame # twice with out mistake. (sorry for jab) no such F185xxx
More importantly is the frames were not used in direct straight line sequence, I have never seen it claimed the frames to be used sequentially.

Sorry about that, it was just a test. Thanks for pointing it out, it's been corrected. This is new to me as I wasn't aware of the different frame sizes. I have 3 frames, the 74 is metric with wide loop, the 70 is Brit. with wide loop, the 71 I'v had for over 30 years was titled as a 72 and is serviceable is Brit frame with narrow loop.... Usually I just invert #'s not leave them out.
 
Sorry about that, it was just a test. Thanks for pointing it out, it's been corrected. This is new to me as I wasn't aware of the different frame sizes. I have 3 frames, the 74 is metric with wide loop, the 70 is Brit. with wide loop, the 71 I'v had for over 30 years was titled as a 72 and is serviceable is Brit frame with narrow loop.... Usually I just invert #'s not leave them out.

Jab is just kidding... as you can see my rear loop frame article was from 2001 when I was making new fastback tail sections and tanks back then. I had seen guys chopping the wide loop frames to install fastback tail sections which of course don't fit the wide loops. I thought what a shame!
I made a modified mold enabling me to make wide loop frame tail sections and yet stopped making tanks due to the E-10 problem.
I finally have the E-10 problem solved with a resin I have sourced that will handle E-15 and even up to 100% ethanol...but pricey.
I have some dunstall atlas and command and fast back tanks to make now. The molds have sat on the shelf long enough.
 
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